What is the point of charging divers additional fees at Florida State Parks?

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Originally Posted by aainslie

As others have pointed out, we're an expensive group to service. looking to the long run, we as a group should be WILLING to pay extra, to remain an important group for the parks and to be influential in their decisions.

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I don't really "want" the extra service the parks provide. Volunteers and the cave agencies provide the lines, benches, docks, etc etc. The park does not provide any services specifically for divers except for nanny state policing as far as I can tell.

I don't mean to come off as insulting to the park service and I am thankful for the access we have and the hard work people put into getting it, but I just want to pay my gate fee and be left alone to enjoy the park as I wish just like everyone else. I don't want a park ranger breathing down my neck because I said I would be out "around 3" and its 3:05 and I have not picked up my card. I don't want a park ranger enforcing rules against scooters or solo diving. I just want to be left alone, and I do not think I am alone in this.

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Originally Posted by cinder4320

What are everyones opinion on the cost of Ginnie specifically comparing tubers fees to divers fees? What amenities do divers get that the tubers do not for the increased fee? Curious...

Miranda

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I just had this strange image in my head of a group of tubers floating through the vertical fissure of Sweet Surprise in the Devil’s System. Yeah, I think I get more out that park than the non-cavers. I do agree that the cave is free, and it is only the access that they can legally charge for. Why more for divers?….. Because they can… And we keep paying…. Not too far from my home in Wisconsin there is even an open pit iron mine that charges a surcharge for divers. Though I still find it strange that Ginnie charges less for cave divers than open water divers…. In a place like Blue Springs in Jackson County, cavers most certainly subsidize the upkeep of that park, and it certainly is a nice park, but more important, it is a really nice cave, thus we pay. Sure there we have choices… We can either subsidize the upkeep of the park, or subsidize the lifestyle of a guy renting out pontoon boats. I suspect Peacock, for instance, would not be State Park if it weren’t for cave divers. Once I asked someone from Live Oak, Florida if she ever goes to Peacock Springs State Park. Her response was – “Why?, there are much more interesting places to go..”…. - Kirk

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

I don't really "want" the extra service the parks provide. Volunteers and the cave agencies provide the lines, benches, docks, etc etc. The park does not provide any services specifically for divers except for nanny state policing as far as I can tell.

I don't mean to come off as insulting to the park service and I am thankful for the access we have and the hard work people put into getting it, but I just want to pay my gate fee and be left alone to enjoy the park as I wish just like everyone else. I don't want a park ranger breathing down my neck because I said I would be out "around 3" and its 3:05 and I have not picked up my card. I don't want a park ranger enforcing rules against scooters or solo diving. I just want to be left alone, and I do not think I am alone in this.

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Yes, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Lanes

Yes, I agree.

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Ditto

I don't know . . . I just came to Florida on my second cave diving trip, and we paid fees everywhere, and I didn't mind. Parks cost money, even if the benches and such are donated. Parking lots cost money to install and grade, paving costs money, running water costs money . . . I thought the amenities in all the places we dove were lovely, compared with a lot of local diving I do at home where parking is the end of a dead-end street, gearing up is in the back of your car, and there isn't even a portapotty within a couple of miles.

Liability insurance for cave diving has got to be atrocious, too, which is something people often don't think about.

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Originally Posted by LCF

I don't know . . . I just came to Florida on my second cave diving trip, and we paid fees everywhere, and I didn't mind. Parks cost money, even if the benches and such are donated. Parking lots cost money to install and grade, paving costs money, running water costs money . . . I thought the amenities in all the places we dove were lovely, compared with a lot of local diving I do at home where parking is the end of a dead-end street, gearing up is in the back of your car, and there isn't even a portapotty within a couple of miles.

Liability insurance for cave diving has got to be atrocious, too, which is something people often don't think about.

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I believe cave divers installed the parking setup at Peacock. The parks with nice washrooms, running water, etc are that way because they cater to swimmers, canoers, campers (Madison Blue, Manatee Springs). The parks that cater to divers have much more spartan accommodations and what is there was paid for by cave divers (Peacock). A lot of people feel that "improvements" ruin the aesthetic of the site - see Little River for example. There is a lot of charm in a dive site where you have a clear patch of ground to park your car and then you clamber down into a sinkhole for a dive, charm that is getting lost in a lot of places with the spread of McCaveDiving.

The state does not need to worry about liability for cave divers.

Private property like Ginnie can do whatever they wish and charge whatever they wish and restrict whatever they wish. People gladly pay 22$ a day to dive there because you can dive solo, dive your scooter, dive 24/7/365, and get treated like a customer and not a nuisance. The park service should not be driven by capitalistic concerns like "how much money can we soak the cave divers for".

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The mission of the Florida Parks Service is to provide resource-based recreation while preserving, interpreting and restoring natural and cultural resources. Our goal is to help create a sense of place by showing park visitors the best of Florida's diverse natural and cultural heritage sites. Florida's state parks are managed and preserved for enjoyment by this and future generations through providing appropriate resource-based recreational opportunities, interpretation and education that help visitors connect to ...the Real Florida.

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

I don't really "want" the extra service the parks provide. Volunteers and the cave agencies provide the lines, benches, docks, etc etc. The park does not provide any services specifically for divers except for nanny state policing as far as I can tell.

I don't mean to come off as insulting to the park service and I am thankful for the access we have and the hard work people put into getting it, but I just want to pay my gate fee and be left alone to enjoy the park as I wish just like everyone else. I don't want a park ranger breathing down my neck because I said I would be out "around 3" and its 3:05 and I have not picked up my card. I don't want a park ranger enforcing rules against scooters or solo diving. I just want to be left alone, and I do not think I am alone in this.

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Hey Bob,

I didn't say they provided extra services. I said:

a) We get more utility than others - the parks are more beneficial to us than to somebody trying to keep their bored kid entertained for a few hours pretending that wandering around Peacock constitutes "quality family time";
b) We want to be influential in their future decisions.

I agree that they're a little too pushy about getting us out. This is the sort of thing that perhaps we can use our influence to affect.

Given that we contribute more to their revenue than any other group, perhaps we could persuade them to have silghtly more generous hours for us?

And perhaps we can convince them that this anti-scooter and anti-solo thing is mere prejudice? Which, seriously, it is.

...But this takes a a solid financial argument, and b) the support and influence of our organising bodies, i.e. NACD and NSS-CDS.

I thought the cave diving was part of the "recreational use" which included activities like canoes, night access or other unusual activities.

The old annual passes used to be divided up into entrance only or recreational use but they just combined them all into one category. The recreational pass used to be twice the entrance pass cost For now it's the same price so they only have one type of pass. Daily use still differentiates. I guess if you insist on paying extra for the annual pass also - you probably could get them to split it up again.


I'd like to think cave divers do an absolute minimum of damage. Most people just hiking around making foot trails and playing frizbee do more damage then cave divers who "theoretically" hover without touching anything. I get a funny vision of normal state park visitors forced to purchase balloons to enter and visit the park so they can float along without leaving foot trails. Then the reality of some 8 year old armed with a fallen stick beating on a tree trying to break the stick. Of course the reality of the cave divers may not always be up to my ideals either.

But if you think about all the boardwalks, benches, grills, bathhouses, etc installed for general visitors the cave divers don't really ask for much "extra". Cave divers are far more likely to show up to help the park with a clean-up day or environmental support, build their own benches, run their own lines, etc.

Not that I'm complaining about the price. Actually the price is the nice part. A fraction of what it costs to go to any of the commercial locations.

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Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

You might have your vehicle broken into [ask Serota about that] back at the boat ramp.

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Mike, not to be antagonistic but I know more people that have had gear stolen at Ginnie than any other dive site, park, etc. combined. That is probably not a point I would use in arguments.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

I agree that they're a little too pushy about getting us out. This is the sort of thing that perhaps we can use our influence to affect.

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We have nobody to blame but ourselves for this one. There was a time you could dive right up to within minutes of closing as long as you were out of the park by closing. But slowly more and more divers pushed the time limit and rangers had to wait around well past closing time. Rangers want to go home too at some point.

When I worked at Lafayette Blue, they let me word the sign for divers. Because the closing hours constantly change [sunset], I had them put something like [paraphrasing here] "Divers must be out of the water half hour before closing."

I don't know what Lafayette is doing currently, they may have changed the rules.

BTW - The original question was "What is the point of charging divers additional fees at Florida State Parks"? If you buy an annual, you don't pay any more than anybody else.