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As an out-of-towner I support guided places. Those types of arrangements make for a better trip for people like me. Not all places but a good chunk of the particluarly delicate or pristine. I don't think landowner-access-guide relationships should be agency specific though.
I am also skeptical that Abe Davis awards and other potential falsifiable experienced based criteria are a substitute for having watchful (guide) eyes who are held accountable by landowners.
This might make some people mad but if you really want to stop the proble you must close the cave. That being said this does not have to be perment. Everybody wanst to fix the problem but how many of us would agree to close a cave for a limited time after such a problem occurs.
1st if we closed a cave those people who know whats going on but wont say anything will then also be punished. This would make all of us alot more likley to be on the look out and 2 report things that might otherwise go untold. If you thought someone else was going to ruin you access even on a limited basis wouldn't we all be more likley to report everything that could hurt the cave in any way.
2nd by agreeing to close a cave far a time we are telling the land owners that we as a community are willing to take action even if we might not like the results to ensure the preservation of our caves.
3rd by closeing a cave we would be get alot more cooperation from buinesses to help stop the problem. More than likley this person was in a dive shop here in cave country but who is going to point fingers or tell names if they think they might lose some of the buniness that they make a living off of. Not to say bussinesses want to protect these people but by closing a cave we not only effect us but them. This would probley make alot more shop owners willing to give the information we might could use to stop this if they are losing something as well.
Another thing we must consider is that the person who did this wants attention in one way or another and without some type of action all we are doing here is giving this person everything they wanted.
I also agree that the profile of this person would lead us all to belive that this might be a younger , but remember that this being said there is still alot of us younger cave divers out there who are just as pissed or even more so because we are having the sport we love taken from us before we have had a lifetime to enjoy it.
I dont know if any of the ideas I have presented will help or even be agreed with but I know that as an indivdual I am willing to make these or other sacrifices in order to portect this sport and our caves for the future use of those we deem deserving and have prove themselve to be good stewards of our caves.
John Spann
Age 25
UF Student
Avid Cave Diver
How can it be anymore closed than having a locked gate? If they sneaked in now, they could still sneak it if it were closed. Closing would only keep out honest cavedivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsffa
Let me set my camper up at Cow...then nobody will dive there that shouldn't be there. :evil:
Exactly, plus it also makes it more difficult to spot the vandalism in a timely fashion. Close the cave and the vandal wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Well, now you all have gone and done it. You have forced me to consider this all seriously. For Kelly's sake, I will attempt to put away my "juvenile side".
Let me start by saying that most of you guys are nuts. Seek help.
To wit:
First, Kelly, these caves are my playground. Have been for 32 years. When you equate cave vandalism to a game of find the mask (or Godzilla), that’s just ridiculous. Then you say that you miss the stupid Leroy in Devils. Come on.
Gary, seek help for what I am sure is a very overinflated opinion of yourself. You, without any basis in fact of who vandalized anything, take this as personal opportunity to bash cave training in general, instructors, and newly certified cave divers. Licensing?? Yea, that’s fostered nothing but environmentally sensitive hunters and fishermen, great solution. Annual verifications?, you want to starve out the instructors remember, who’s going to do it? "The message has been sent"... What a joke.
Close the dive sites, yeah that’s good thinking John. You must be a political science major. “Old School Instructors”? There are only a handful of you more old school than me, and let me tell you, I did not need anyone to tell me not to s h i t where I play. Learned it when I was about 2.
It is all about basic personal integrity. Either you got it, or you don’t, and the number of dives you have, and your instructor will not change that.
The overall lack of perspective astounds me. You have what, ½ dozen cases of vandalism a year vs. the many thousands of cave dives each year, and somehow you are ready to throw out what laughingly passes as a system? How many of you can say that you have never left a hand print, fin print, skid mark, scooter gouge or knocked off a chunk of overhead? I know its not by design but it happens. A hell of a lot more often than some asshat carving his initials in the mud.
And if you are worried about government agencies and landowners reading this BS on the Internet, DON’T POST IT ON THE INTERNET! Pictures of the damage? You guys remind me of a drunk girl that posts pictures of her butt on MySpace, and then whines when her daddy sees it. Can’t you guys do anything quietly? Make discrete inquiries, pass the word at the shops, find out who did it, and then skin them.
And the memorials? Who gave anyone permission to put these in to begin with? What makes any person rate a memorial more than the next? Everyone that’s died has friends and family so does everyone get to have one? That would be about 20 or so in Jenny systems , another dozen in Little River, 15 or so in Peacock, a few each for Madison, Thunderhole, Edwards, JB, Cheryl, Emerald, the list goes on. Will you whine as loud if all of these get installed as you do when one gets removed?
Mike, as nice as the offer is for you to make a personal sacrifice and live at Cow, I for one do not want to drive up there and see your soggy drawers hanging on a clothesline.
And as much as I appreciate the reward idea, unless you are going to use the money to hire a hitman, you had better ask a deputy what he needs as evidence to make a arrest, and what the DA’s off ice needs to prosecute. You will have better luck taking them before Judge Judy.
Do we look at these incidents as a just another opportunity for everyone with some half baked idea of what’s wrong in cave diving to come out of the woodwork and start pointing their fingers and espousing some infantile crap?
I believe that overall cave divers do a wonderful job of protecting the caves. I believe that every instructor spends some amount of time teaching the skills that are required, and that they do a pretty good job (Except for caver95 who we should hold down and spray with Nair). Rennaker tells me he sold over 1 million cubic feet of gas in the last year. And that’s just one location .How many dives is that? Why are we so eager to bash everyone from top to bottom over a few sets of carved initials and a missing plaque? Find the idiot that did it, leave me (and everyone else) the hell alone.
This has been my serious venting for calender year 2007, I now will return you to pointless sarcastic humor, that for the most part, I find far more satisfying than this was
John your bring up a valid point of whether a static marker doesn't belong in a cave,and since it isn't actually part of the cave,then it probably takes away from the aesthetic. From a conservation stand point that marker is typically stationary,and normally not moved around and not causing attrition to the cave. An object that is hidden in caves for others to find,and placed in another location, typically results is more cave attrition since others will have to go out of their way in search of something,that may require contact with the cave to find. My main point was if we treat the cave with respect,then we maintain credibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
This isn't an isolated incident. We hear about damage to the caves all the time and I see it every time I go into a popular cave. Instead of doing anything about it we talk about hushing up the talk so no one reads it. It's not just open water divers scraping their name in the entrance either. Every every scooter prop mark, just about every hand print, fin mark, stage tank drag etc was done by a cave diver. Some don't even seem to care that they do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
It wasn't a OW diver who wrote the name of the artist in the White Room. It wasn't an OW diver who wrote DIC in Peacock or Cow. It wasn't a OW diver that carved an X in the ceiling near stage bottle rock.
There are either too many cave divers or they aren't trained well enough or they just don't care to minimize the damage. And I think everyone from the landowners, to the agencies, to the instructors, to the individual cave divers should be looking for ways to make it harder for people to do this kind of damage to the caves.
I've seen cave instructors teaching students that beat their feet against the bottom with every kick of the fin at OLSEN - blasting visibility in a big open passage but still took them on a circuit dive for the course and probably still passed them onto Apprentice or Full. I've seen instructors TELL their cave class about how Cow is one of "the sacrificial caves" they use to teach students in so don't worry too much about beating it up.
When you have instructors who are teaching their students that it is "OK" to beat up the cave and give them a licence to access the caves without making sure (or even caring) that they have the equipment, skill and desire to prevent simple avoidable cave damage no one should be surprised that the students become rotten cave divers and go out and damage the caves at will - thinking little of it.
I KNOW there are instructors out there more concerned with getting a check then protecting the caves. I KNOW there are cave divers out there who will drag and scrape tanks thru anywhere they please regardless of their skills. I KNOW pretty sure that the person writing "DIC" on the cave walls is a trained cave diver who is maliciously causing damage to the caves.
The only way to cut down on the cave damage is either to close the caves, reduce the number of cave divers, or improve the skill levels and care of those being allowed to access the caves. You can't do nothing and expect it to get better.
If you've been around as long as you say then you should remember when it was considered wrong for a cave instructor to advertise their cave courses. When cave students were never solicited - maybe even dissuaded. Now cave courses are posted all over the Internet and instructors are churning out new cave certified students at a never before seen rate. Cave instructors will attempt to teach anyone who asks and will generally work with them as long as necessary to get them to "the minimum" necessary to pass them.
Hey - that's very nice and all but it's not doing the caves much good is it?
I don't even know of a cave instructor now that thinks it is wrong to advertise cave courses. I don't know if any instructors 20 years ago would put up with the "sacrificial cave" teaching or certify a student who had ZERO skills but I know that all of these are acceptable today.
With more divers means more pressure and more damage. But so does lax teaching and people not caring about the damage they do. With more divers we need to be MORE concerned that every diver is doing what they can to minimize damage to the cave not less - but that isn't the way it is going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Are you serious?
Hate to break it to you but part of the "purpose" of the CDS Corporation is "exploration", thereby encouraging people to "go out of their way" simply to explore and will cause more cave attrition. Will it not?
What is wrong with encouraging trained members of your or any other cave agency to "go off the mainline and explore"? If a gimmick of a mask does that, then maybe an extra high quality explorer will be created that otherwise would have not been created. Then again, maybe that is your goal? Limit the number of those divers willing to explore a cave rather then simply "stay in the lines"?
Positioning a plaque or other "memorial" in a cave can do more damage because everyone hears where it is and "has to go see it" thus possibly encouraging divers to "push their limits" if it is "back in the cave" and possibly causing "more attrition" in a specific part of a cave.
If one wants less attrition in a cave, they should refrain from cave diving and stick to OW diving in deep blue water. Even then, peeing in that wetsuit causes pollution in the area of the diver, possibly causing harm to the microscopic lifeforms that surround the diver...
Treating a cave with "respect" is what we all should encourage. That of course is a pretty simple concept. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles, and pick up your caths after the dive.
I have to agree with John about landowner relations... if we'd (cavedivers) quit posting about these "infractions" on the internet in openly accessible forums, then maybe landowners/park service would not be so worried about the .05% of cavedivers that are retarded enough to try to screw it up for the rest of us...
There is every reason to encourage exploration, and there are incentives to do it. Looking for a hidden object is not a facilitator to exploration.Quote:
Originally Posted by defunct