Pull and glide vs ???

I have to agree with you Mike, back in 97 I did intro there, it was my turn to run the reel, three students in the class, when coming out the reel jammed and the basin is full of divers so I'm trying no to let the string go and deflate my bc at the same time, I got control of all the string and one of my dive buddies shot to the surface and the other came up behind me
and deflated my bc & took me down to 20' I had stopped at 15, I never did ask him why he did that to me, by the way the instructor did go get our wayward buddy and brought him back down, he no longer cave dives, the buddy not the instructor. They all asked me why I didn't let the string go-I said cause everyone in the spring who have gotten caught in it and they would have gotten pretty mad at the newbie. It was very high flow then, this week it was just enough to float you out in a nice leisurely manner.
Janet

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

While I agree this is great advice, it speaks more to someone with experience in caving. As someone quite new to caving, and not versed in the ways of "reading the cave", and as someone following the general rule of not criscrossing the cave with line from the reel, it makes this a bit challenging.

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I need to chime in here, my instructor hammered reading the cave into us during our intro class in the Devil's system & through our full class as well as DPV a few years later...yea same principles apply with a scooter. Just because you have some horsepower clipped to your crotch ring dosen't mean you shouldn't still "read the cave", remain neutral buoyant at all times and good trim to get as much of an advantage out of your scooter as possible.

So, reading the cave right from the get-go is taught by some, your instructor did you a disservice not teaching this. I'm not saying he/she was a bad instructor by anymeans but they should have coverd this.

I'm somewhat dissmayed by some of the comments I have heard of late about swimming vs P & G at the dive sites. As an example, one comment I heard as I was standing on the stairs at P1 was during their surface deco a team member talking to another about their dive up to Olson & back via the Pot Hole line, was he didn't want to "come back here because there was nothing to grab hold of to pull & glide".

I think unless the teaching of certain concepts is codified by the agencies, this kind of thing will always be up to instructor choice. It's much like open water and gas management. Some instructors teach it, and some don't, but it's currently not a part of the curriculum even though it's a critical skill.

I don't think my instructor was "bad" per se, we just didn't spend time working on learning to read the caves. To be fair, I know if I asked him to spend some time on it, he would. We also didn't spend a lot of time on learning tie offs. These things tend to come with diving experience. And I am not the fastest learner, but when I understand something at more than a superficial level, it tends to stay with me.

We worked on reading the cave from intro through full. It came little by little basically as critiques on what we were doing wrong going into the cave. I think "reading the cave" is in large part something you need to work on through experience. An instructor can tell you what you should look for, but it takes diving to be able to really figure it out. There are a couple of systems that I dive on a regular basis and have figured out. I know the path of least resistance and how to maximize my dives there. This wasn't something I learned in the first couple dives, or even the 10th or 20th. There are also caves I've only dived a few times that I still have a lot to learn about. An instructor can teach you about SAC and RMV, but you need to figure out your own and keep tweeking it as your experience expands. In the same token, an instructor can give you tips on reading a cave, but you need to tweek it to your own diving style through experience.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

As someone quite new to caving, and not versed in the ways of "reading the cave", and as someone following the general rule of not criscrossing the cave with line from the reel, it makes this a bit challenging.

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A good thing to do for this have a big bright light and stop to look forward at the cave passage for each "leg" of the trip. See ahead to the next turn and plan your next push to take advantage of the turn and sheltered spots ahead. You don't have to be right on the line - mostly that's the highest flow area. The low flow areas are off to the side, up in the ceiling or down near the floor. On the way back out just get back in the center passage flow and let it push you out while you enjoy the cave.

A good light makes a lot of difference. If you can't see ahead you can't plan (except by simply knowing the cave) you can't see where the open areas you cane swim thru easily and where the line leads you into a low area you should be avoiding.

Unless you are runnig line in a new cave running the reel is such a small part of any full cave dive that it is like locking your car before you get in the water. It's something you do so that you can safely dive but it is isn't the main part of the dive. You run the reel to the main line and that's when the dive really starts: time to look around, look ahead, see, plan, enjoy. On a general dive you probably have an hour or more bottom time of which only a few minutes should be running the reel.

I'm generally free most days, even during the week. I live 30 min from Ginnie springs, 50 from Little river and 1.5 hours from peacock. I have annual passes so it's no cost to me. If you've got your full cave and want a buddy one day call me (er.. PM me).

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

It seems to me, that cave education, marvelous as it may be, leaves a few subjects out that would be helpful to those who lack the experience to make some good judgements.

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A cave certification is a licence to learn. Cave trainning teaches just the minimum for survival and preservation of the cave. Once you have the certification everything else comes from experience, mentoring, gear and practice - the learning that never ends. No matter how many dives and caves and things you ever do there will always be something new to learn or do. No cave course can teach everything you need to know.

I like to pull and glide. I like the feeling of sudden acceleration and the slowing down of the glide, then the sudden acceleration again. It's fun. I like it with my flat hand, and I like it with a finger or two. I don't like it when it breaks things. I don't like it in open passages, clinging to the walls. I do like it in small tight passages of high-relief bottom rock and little or no silt or when a big rock juts out and just begs for a grab, pull, shoot forward, and glide.

Reading the cave includes appropriate use of pull and glide.

-skip

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Originally Posted by skip

I like to pull and glide. I like the feeling of sudden acceleration and the slowing down of the glide, then the sudden acceleration again. It's fun. I like it with my flat hand, and I like it with a finger or two. I don't like it when it breaks things. I don't like it in open passages, clinging to the walls.

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Would you like it in a house?
Would you like it with a mouse?

Would you like it here or there?
Would you like it anywhere?

...

I like it upside down: those rare restrictions with screeming flow and no good handholds on the floor, I can sneek thru in relative ease by crawling in upside down on the ceiling. :)

I like pull and glide, yes I do!
If you try it, so will you!

Gary-! Now you've done it-! 8)

"Would you like it in a house?
Would you like it with a mouse?

Would you like it here or there?
Would you like it anywhere" ?

"I like it upside down: those rare restrictions with screeming flow and no good handholds on the floor, I can sneek thru in relative ease by crawling in upside down on the ceiling". SG-:!:

My lungs & feet are twitching now, & seemingly for no reason-?
Thanks-!

Jack

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Originally Posted by RN

We worked on reading the cave from intro through full. It came little by little basically as critiques on what we were doing wrong going into the cave. I think "reading the cave" is in large part something you need to work on through experience. An instructor can tell you what you should look for, but it takes diving to be able to really figure it out. There are a couple of systems that I dive on a regular basis and have figured out. I know the path of least resistance and how to maximize my dives there. This wasn't something I learned in the first couple dives, or even the 10th or 20th. There are also caves I've only dived a few times that I still have a lot to learn about. An instructor can teach you about SAC and RMV, but you need to figure out your own and keep tweeking it as your experience expands. In the same token, an instructor can give you tips on reading a cave, but you need to tweek it to your own diving style through experience.

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Well said...I couldn't agree more.

Fluid dynamics, or fluid mechanics is the science of fluids in motion. Hydrodynamics is fluid dynamics applied to liquids. Googling these terms will provide some interesting reading and some graphics of flow around stationary objects that you can apply to "Reading the cave".

http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/ar...luid-mechanics

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=2522&rendTypeId=4

http://visualisation.tudelft.nl/publ...s/post1993.pdf Excellent

Also, you can search for info on flow of blood through clogged arteries. http://www.mie.utoronto.ca/labs/bsl/...carotid_tn.jpg
http://www.mie.utoronto.ca/labs/bsl/gallery.html