What has happened to...

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Originally Posted by SLIM

Many of them now days have not been tought about conservation but most do not care about it.

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We follow the same mandate as dry cavers that conservation or more precisely preservation is important and highly regarded. This attitude is what keeps many dry caving sites open and closed to vandals. We are under the same pressure,and unless we represent the conservation message that we promote,then we will be considered hypocrites,and it will be difficult to keep caves open where conservation is important to the land owner. The state of Florida regards this very highly,even to the point of passing a law preventing defacing and vandalism in caves.

The message of conservation starts in cavern class,and the message the instructor delivers is what sticks with the student. I am proud to see the NSS-CDS in their new instructional standards require the instructor to give a reference to cave conservation after each dive debrief,hence conservation is heard through out the class. I hope that future generations of cave divers will be more conservation savvy.

It's a simple fix

Quit marketing cave diving classes! The caves will heal given time...

Drew

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Originally Posted by Limestone Cowboy

It's a simple fix

Quit marketing cave diving classes! The caves will heal given time...

Drew

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I don't see how you're ever going to be able to do that. Theoretically, that was the mantra of all the "mainstream" agencies.

You can see how far it got us.....

Here are a couple of ideas guaranteed to get nowhere:

1. Limit the number of students an instructor can certify in a calendar year. This would probably increase the amount of time the instructor spent with each student.

2. Specify a minimum number of dives (for instance, twelve) a student must make after attaining each level before taking the next course. This would eliminate the "Zero to Hero" courses.

Again, guaranteed to get nowhere.

As long as the person issuing the license has a financial incentive to do so, there problem cannot be solved. The conflict of interest is inherent and insoluble.

If we're going to have licenses, then we need to start treating them as licenses - with all the protections from "corruption" (whether intentional or just inherent in the conflict of interest) that can be generated.

The alternative is to quit pretending we're issuing licenses, and leave people alone.

I particularly love people whining about scooter use by people who haven't "done what people think they should" to be able to use them. In a high-flow system a scooter is actually one of the most conservation-minded thing you can bring into a cave, because it eliminates contact with the cave.

Pull and glide is damage. Minor damage, but damage nonetheless. A scooter driver has less impact on a high-flow system than someone without.

We need to get the hypocrisy out of cave diving, and this is just yet another example of where we have it all backwards.

Question for Genesis (who advocates the use of DPV's) and for anyone else with his level of eperience: Most of us are not certified to use DPV's, but it is hard to get through the Lips at Ginnie without one. Which is the least evil going through the Lips: fins big enough to swim against that current, pull and glide on the floor, or roof walking?

For the Lips think strategy - don't try to shoot "the middle". I think in terms of impact a couple of quick pulls are likely less damaging than walking on the ceiling, and I don't know if you could reasonably go through on fin power alone no matter how big of a fin you have..... use the eddy's in the flow - they're there.....

BTW I ain't certified for a DPV..... :lol:

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Originally Posted by Genesis

I. In a high-flow system a scooter is actually one of the most conservation-minded thing you can bring into a cave, because it eliminates contact with the cave.

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I have to agree,that if the person is a skilled DPV operator,there is a greater chance of cave perservation with a scooter since physical contact is eliminated. This mean having good body awareness to know where the back mounted tanks are in relation to the ceiling,stages in relation to the floor,and slow to down in small areas to name a few.

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Originally Posted by allen

Most of us are not certified to use DPV's, but it is hard to get through the Lips at Ginnie without one. Which is the least evil going through the Lips: fins big enough to swim against that current, pull and glide on the floor, or roof walking?

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Wow, I dive Ginnie all the time and never use a scooter. Getting through the lips is all about technique. Like Karl said you are much better looking for the eddy and making two good pulls, I stay low and to the right and then come up over the line to make the drop to the Key Hole. It works for me. Granted I am not going to the Hinkle but you can do the grand tour with good technique.

Curt

Being newly trained (1.5 years as full cave so far) and approaching 50 cave dives after training, I can at least say that conservation was a big part of cavern/intro and full cave. I was admonished (albeit nicely) about ceiling walking and pull and glide and did several dives for the express purpose of "reading the cave" to avoid the areas of stronger current and to avoid touching. I especially remember a hand print in the mud at Peacock being pointed out, discussed post-dive, and the consensus feeling was how totally unacceptable it was (with understanding that sometimes bad things can happen to those with the best intentions).

So i don't think there's a mad rush to make money, over-market cave training, agencies or instructors who blow off conservation, etc. There's a lot more cave divers than ever before and whenever population increases, quality of environment decreases.

Limiting the number of cave divers per day may be a solution. Applying time limits to c-cards (expiration dates) may also be a solution.

I don't think fixing the damage is such a good idea. a handprint in the mud, a chunk of rock broken and damaged, are good reminders of failures in conservation, poor technique and should make us shudder and protest, which only spreads the conservation word. Besides when is human-intervention (ie, "fixing") things anything more than another scar to "fix" the first scar? Does the "fix" fix or is it a second violation?

just some thoughts....
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