I would hope that if someone broke the gold line, they would know it, and patch it with a spool if necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Boutilier
Printable View
I would hope that if someone broke the gold line, they would know it, and patch it with a spool if necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Boutilier
@rddvet
so I hear you on devil's advocate, but I have to vehemently disagree. Simple question. You do the circuit "properly" meaning you go in on the gold line side, tie into the bone room and place your cookie on dive 1. Dive 2 you tie into the bone line, and run up per normal, pull your reel and right before you come around the corner the line is severed. What do you do? Odds are you don't have enough gas to turn around and go all the way back out and you verified that line 2 hours ago but some idiot went in, severed the line and didn't fix it. You already pulled your jump reel so you now don't have any continuous line back to the surface even though you followed proper protocols for a circuit.
How is this different vs. the original dive plan?
I'd argue that this plan is fine in my book, granted I'd be a hypocrite if it wasn't. Is it something that is taught or should be taught in cave class? No, but that doesn't make it complacent, and I'd argue that this dive plan is no less safe than if they had properly followed circuit procedures based on continuous guideline. Based on gas planning, you still have to do the proper procedure unless you have done the dive before, or based on accurate maps and assumptions you are carrying adequate gas reserves
put the jump in and just leave it there, abandoning it? letting it become a tee for someone else to remove?
eh, sometimes you have to use your brain and not your training when common sense disagrees with rote dogma or the situation just isn't covered explicitly in class or manual.
I don't remember the exact quote but Jim Wyatt said once that there's an exception out there to every rule in the manual.
That's why I said devil's advocate. A million ways to look at it. At the same time, what you describe as a "proper" circuit isn't what was done in this example. They didn't go half way to confirm that their gas exiting via the gold line would be as sufficient as exiting the way they came. So therefore it was a trust me dive 100% of the way. So I guess using your example above, it can be seen as "more OK" than the example by the OP considering no understanding by all divers in the team of their gas requirements. In your example at least the team has an understanding of gas requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate. In reality I don't have a huge issue at all with "reeling people in" although I personally do it differently or even a planned blind jump that was agreed upon at the surface by a team that dives that particular part of the cave regularly and knows it well. But this is an argument that comes up among my group of friends regularly. Some that I've had this discussion with literally argue that blind jumps are OK because that's what "people with alot of experience do all the time" which isn't a valid argument. Others feel as I do that it is not the smartest idea but there are grey zones of it being OK. And then there's the staunch proponent of doing it as described in class and only that way because 99% of examples of blind jumps or "reeling people" is done to complacency. Usually people not wanting to pull jumps or do set up dives, not the fake scenarios of broken lines which rarely happens.
I know, I was just saying the full rationale behind why I would have no problem doing it.
What is your procedure for "reeling in"?
also, based on the maps, I would have no problem doing that dive as planned in one go. Rough approximations say that the gold line jump is roughly equidistant back to the surface and it's with the flow, so I would be OK. I would make sure I had big enough tanks and may make it like thirds+2, but I'd be ok doing it without following circuit procedure. That's for me, based on my experience and comfort though...
if anybody on that team had a problem after that last jump and that gal had to get out of there on her own against the flow, or, god help her, if she had to help somebody else out, that could have been big ugly. Her thumb was broke. She should have popped it when she hit thirds or before, and she should have popped it when she got involved in the second jump, or even better she should have declined the dive based upon the plan. I'm not sure any of you folks would commit to an irreversible jump to gold line (or any other line) you had never been on before (if you didn't have the capacity to swim back out of it). If she is thinking for herself (which she obviously wasn't) she should have been out of there at 1/3's. I believe in gold line and arrows, yeah buddy, but I don't trust em if I don't know em. Glad all is well and that we could learn from this discussion. Thanx.
If I'm the lead diver I place the jump on the current line, swim over to jump and sit at the new line. When there and everything is verified, signal team to come on over, then they verify that everything they expected is as discussed pre-dive. I then reel back over to first line and pull my jump line and swim back over to my team. This is taking several things into account. First this isn't for a very long jump where I'll be around a corner and can't see my team. It's also not in small cave, it's for places like Ginnie where I'm jumping from big open area to another. It's also not so far that I can't very easily and clearly see my team across the way. In my feeble mind by doing it this way I've verified the line, and allowed my team to confirm that I'm not dumb and just jumped to the wrong line. If I screwed up, then we still have a line back to the initial starting point. If it's unfamiliar cave, tight or silty cave, or an area where I absolutely couldn't dead clearly see my team on the other line we wouldn't even consider doing any of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
I also agree that based on the maps it's clear the OP's circuit wouldn't be a tax on gas. But I was going on the assumption that because of how things panned out that the woman probably didn't have the best understanding of the area she was traversing regardless of whether she read a map or not.
First, I am a total hypocrite and when I lived in Gainesville and dove Devil's 3-4 times a week I did visual jumps and blind circuits. It was dumb then and it's dumb now.
Second, I cannot believe some of the dangerous crap that is being discussed here. There is only one safe way to do a circuit and that is by verifying both ends, installing the jumps, and leaving appropriate markers. It's spelled out with easy to follow diagrams in any cave diving manual that's worth the paper it is printed on. Do a dive in the morning to set it up properly, get your tanks filled and eat a sub, then do a dive in the afternoon to finish the circuit and clean up. What if someone breaks the line after you pass the point of no return on the second dive? That's why you have a safety reel and plan your gas conservatively. Tie in your safety reel, make the repair, and make your exit just like you would on a linear penetration dive if the same thing happened.
Reeling in the rest of the team? What are you trying to accomplish or protect yourself from? That's like putting a condom on and then taking it off right before having sex. You might as well just do the visual jump rather than a engaging in a pointless little ceremony.
If you're doing pickup dives with parking lot strangers dot and every "i" and cross every "t" or don't dive. Actually, do that regardless of who you dive with. A well known instructor once told me that cave diving must be the safest sport on the planet because every weekend he sees people try to kill themselves and their friends and not succeed.
I'm curious to know some opinions of meeting and diving with someone for the first time. I usually dive with the same people at this point but sometimes dive with unfamiliar people as a lot of us do and have met some great friends by doing so. If I'm unsure of the person and their capabilities I ask a few of my regular dive buddies if they're familiar with the in particular person. Another good thing to do would be kind of a "check out" dive with the person. I've never asked someone to see a card as it seems insulting but maybe not a bad idea at times. Speaking with the person for a little while usually tells me a lot of what to expect. Thoughts?
I agree, talking to them will tell you a lot. I have even had people go ask their instructors if they should dive with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pullnglide