Reading will get you in trouble

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Originally Posted by mpoucher

Maybe the best we can do is openly discuss these accidents in training and in the publications so we can hopefully learn from them. Maybe they should be incorporated in the training programs along with the classic lessons we learned from "Blueprint.."

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I agree. I'm not sure that accidents are openly discussed well enough. I understand that it's a sensitive issue. It is especially so if there is a survivor from the team. However, I can tell you that every time a trained diver has died I internalize what I know from those accidents because 'stuff happens' and 'stuff' could happen to me. It is helpful to at least know what NOT to do when 'stuff' happens.

How long is a reasonable wait time before the accident analyses become available? 6mo? 1yr? (IUCRR reports, etc). Perhaps you are right Mike. The cave community needs to start pushing to talk more about these things. If there are folks out there that disagree, I'd like to hear from them so that I can understand better why the information about accidents isn't out there. Maybe there are very valid reasons for it but from the outside looking in it seems counterproductive.

FWIW I've never accidently sunk elbow deep into clay but I did once get my new SM rig hung on the line and face planted into a 'silt monster' (training told me what to do & my instructor got a good laugh). But then again I haven't started scootering 'yet' either........... :oops:

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Originally Posted by Gasman

How do I find the article that everyone is referring? The topic is interesting.

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It is in the special issue of UWS. If you are a member of the NSS-CDS you should get a copy in the mail. If not, someone you know might have one.

Mike you make a great point. Many times in this and other reports and posts folks have said diving beyond ones level has been a reason for accidents but you say no. I believe you are right. I find this discussion VERY VERY simular to the ones we had in the motorcycle world when everyone and their father bought a new 150 HP repli-racer. While most people got a motorcycle endorsement on their license there was still a rash of returning riders that were involved in fatal crashes. The advantage the dive induastry has over the motorcycles is that instructors have the power to turn away folks that just don't get it.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

That is exactly my point if you throw out the ones that don't count the numbers are not rising at the alarming rate that Mr.Bozanic asserts.
Curt

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Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure all the numbers are in. Do the statistics from OW accidents include those associated with medical problems? If so, then maybe it's a wash - comparatively speaking.

I believe the point Mr. Bozanic was making that whatever the reason, the numbers are rising. So we need to understand why they are rising and whether or not those accidents can be prevented. I'm glad he wrote the article. Discussion needs to start somewhere. Maybe it'll be useful feedback when he again crunches the numbers. Taking a different look at the sample data, etc.

I have been doing this for close to 15 years now and it seens the biggest problem with accident analyis is that many times we just don't know what happened. Look at the article how many UNKNOWNs are there. unfortunately many times the investigation is done by the local sheriff and all they are looking for is that there was no foul play. Once that is determined the rest is done by Volunteers with in the cave community and like you said many times they are probably reluctant to approach and survivor or family. I know I would God bless those folks.

Curt

Yeah. That WOULD be a thankless job. Most community service job do tend that way.

What have you been doing for 15 years? Are you a sheriff?

Cave diving on and off, Back on heavy now.
But I was a police investigator for 10 years before admiting I'm a computer geek :D so I understand their priorities.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

Ok so the new issue of UWS finally arrived and I started looking at some of the Accidents in Florida. Where in the world is Zoo Hole?

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I'd just like to know where in the publication it says "Zoo Hole" ? I read the thing but can't seem to find any reference to that, must be getting senile I guess

Brian

Reading the articles in the UWS made me search the Caves.org\aca reports. It is in the 1994 report in May two fatalities because inadaquate equipment, out of air. I was trying to determine if this is an old name of something else or a miss print. I am also looking for the actual reports, this is just a list of dates and locations with a very brief synopsis. So if anyone can direct me to an online source.

It's actually in the Bahamas, near Freeport. The "Florida" location listed on the ACA web page is a typo, which I am correcting. It's reported correctly in the 1994 issue of ACA. Somehow I listed it as Florida when I put the index on the ACA page, and that's what got copied into the UWS article.

The original reference was a newspaper article that I have in the ACA files. The incident came to my attention when it was reported by Bill Kilmack in his column "In the Media" in the November 1994 NSS News. The newspaper article was submitted by Dennis Williams.

Here is the ACA writeup on the incident:

May 1994
Zoo Hole, Bahamas
out of air, inadequate equipment

Michael Brown (37) and Randy Smith (30) died while diving in waters near Freeport, Grand Bahamas. They entered a blue hole that led to a cave in about 120 feet of water. They did not use a guide line or lights, though both were reportedly available in their boat. Brown was a certified cave diver, who had been diving for over 20 years and taught courses in advanced diving. He had dived the cave previously. Smith learned to dive in the Navy and had worked as a commercial diver. Brown was found about 100 feet from the entrance. Smith was located the next day by two professional divers from Gainesville, Florida.

References:
1. Bill Klimack, “In the Media”, NSS News, v52n11, November 1994, p. 340.

2. Newspaper article, source unknown, submitted by Dennis Williams.