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The entire thread was about river cave! As for caves existing outside the Santa Fe and Suwannee Rivers..............No ####! I am actually able to drive and have been to many of them. NO WHERE in the discussion were swallets or tidal caves (such as Crystal Beach) brought up. The ENTIRE DISCUSSION was about reversals caused by rising river water.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
settle down dude. you said caves don't reverse suddenly and violently. that's just not true.
Did you read the first line of the post you quoted????? I am very aware of swallets and have dove quite a few myself. AGAIN how does this relate to:
FLOW REVERSALS CAUSED BY RISING RIVER WATER??????????? I am not yelling but emphasizing the question since it seems to keep getting missed.
Jerry
I am calm; I have to ask did you read the entire thread or just cherry pick to nit pick?????
EDIT you quoted me as saying: "caves don't reverse suddenly and violently." and that it's not true.
Do you understand what a swallet is??? You are stating people get pulled into a swallet. That isn't a reversal. That is increased flow which yet again is not a violent REVERSAL!
Jerry
yea i did. this is the post i quoted:
"I've seen several comments about reversals; they don't happen instantaneously or violently. It is a gradual progression and on the cusp of a reversal can be the prime time to dive high flow systems. Decoing on the rock at Little River one time I felt like a turnpike toll taker for all the divers going by.
Jerry"
to which i responded, 'yea they do' then you were off to the races...
You never answered my question about reversing swallets either. Swallets rarely reverse (they can) and if they did it would be a positive outflow.
The key word you don't seem to understand is reverse.
i dont want to play semantics with you but the flow reverses in black hole swallet when it is taking on water. upstream turns into downstream and downstream turns into REALLY downstream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry
this also happens at sullivan sink.
this is what it looks like on the surface: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y_2pH8JGPk
and here's sullivan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9KpCa_Ab08
it happens fast and violently sometimes.
I think a similar thing happens at Indian, too.Not sure of the time scale involved but water gets sucked down into the cave.
Jerry,
Can you comment on the definition of swallet?
I seem to remember when I read Art Palmer's book on cave geology that he defined it as a place where flows into a karst feature (sinkhole/doline, etc.). In my experience, cave divers also call this a syphon.
Now, with a quick internet search, I find myself more confused than before:
Wikipedia seems to equate swallet with a sinkhole, with no definite reference to water flow direction - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swallet
The University of Kentucky Karst Glossary refers to it as a sink point without reference to enterable cave - http://www.uky.edu/KGS/water/general...stGlossary.htm (see entry on swallow hole).
Is this a geology term that is going out of style or does it take on a regional meaning for cavers?
-Jon
Attachment 11827
A swallet or swallow hole is a generally misused term referring to a karst feature that takes in surface water. They would most properly be called a "sinking stream". A similar feature called an estevelle can go both ways (syphon or spring) depending on hydrostatic conditions. I have attached(I hope) an image of the Alapaha River Sink, which could be called a swallet or properly a sinking stream. The Santa Fe river at O'Leno, Mill Creek (aka Alachua Sink has an associated swallet behind the sink), Rose Creek Swallet, are all karst features that take in surface water. They DO NOT reverse/change flow direction.
Indian and the other examples just listed by others are examples of offset sinks; just like Mill Creek. Mill Creek has a tunnel roughly 200 ft long to the u/s-d/s T. It can reverse.
It isn't semantics. Swallets don't reverse; period. Above I said they can; that is the estevelle scenario.
Jerry