Printable View
I think this is needed to fix your statement. I'd even be okay with "most." However, it's unfair to some instructors to imply "all" dive training is bad. But your point is correct. Well, I think it's partially ignorance and partially attributed to entitlement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Joe already answered that, it is pretty simple. Maybe it is too obvious for some people?Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
The procedure is to get off the trigger, wait a few seconds, and then look back into the tunnel you just came through. Just the same as when backereferencing the cave or when going through small stuff. Looking back and taking a look at how you (or your buddy) are doing, and what to expect in terms of cave and silt, is always a good idea.
Why? Just go in full speed, all the way to thirds, and don't look back. You will have the rest of your life to find your way out through a major siltout.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
:roll:
No, I got that. I was just continuing on the line of thought of dishonest self-assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Tegg said: The issue....that many have seen in the caves is that many of the currently active divers in the gold line caves do not properly assess their skills and most think they are better in the water than they really are
I've seen damage in Hole, Twin, JB. Heck, after a group of SM cave divers came out of JB they were playing in the shallows and I watched as their SPGs shoveled dirt as they were passing under the line. Self-assessment is where I think most things should go, but the people damaging the caves with scooters are probably the ones incapable of doing a good self-assessment. Even if they do blow out the cave, it was their buddy...not them. Or, they were just sloppy this time...they'll do better next time. I know I have zero experience on a scooter, but this isn't confined to scooters....it's true of all divers. Maybe by the time you're cave diving with a scooter you're better than bad self-assessment?
The questions you are bringing up are very interesting and likely worth an entire thread of their own. What role does an increase in experience play when it comes to self-asessment, the general understanding of safety in the caves and the protection of the environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
Because as you say, someone with the experience to run a scooter deep into a cave should know better.
Some other examples might be to no longer analyse banked gas, doing Visual jumps, maxing out thirds, not running a line (in caves where it is probably very essential), getting sloppy with the equipment, touching things, not caring too much about trim in certain situations and again finally "just scootering along" the passage.
Experienced divers should know better, but apparently not so. I wonder if it could be complacency?
Complacency: a feeling of quiet pleasure or security, often while unaware of some potential danger, defect, or the like; self-satisfaction or smug satisfaction with an existing situation.
I just can't seem to remember where I heard this lately but I remember it was a great number of times.
Oliver,
Self awareness does come with experience. In the beginning, too many are too eager to see all and do all with a total disregard to self awareness and the environment. Of course if more then a few instructors hammered this point home to their students in the open water way before entering a cave, the problem would solve itself. Problem is too many instructors have the money in the pocket of this group and another group in waiting. The instructor is in a bigger hurry then the poor student. The sad fact is too many are in too big a hurry to become cave divers. So big of a hurry they just don't care who teaches them or what they look like in the water. This attitude of "I'm a cave diver so of course I look good, is a joke!" The thing that gets me is all the you tube videos that go up and get yanked down because they get made fun of. That should be a serious red flag for self awareness or lack of it. I use to blame the students. While it is partially their fault for being in a hurry and not seeking out a good instructor, the crappy instructor is more to blame. I guess I will put it like this. You get what you pay for. If you want to be better it costs way more then $400 for a full cave card and you will earn the respect you desire. If not, then you simply won't have it. Clowns seem to always get the respect they want. Of course their desire for it is fairly low. Hence the makeup to hide behind. Do you think that's why hoods and masks were invented. So we can't see who it was that blew out the cave or crashed their scooter into the silt making it look like a tractor pull went wrong?
You know my two cents on scootering Twin. If I can swim to the back of JB in high flow on 108's and 4 stages then seeing all of Twin with no flow and shallow depths is a cake walk on 85's. Personally I have seen things and places in Twin few had seen before me according to Edd and Gordon. I found all those because I was swimming when the little low duck under happened across my eyes. Like the room with the leaking chandelier.
My advice. Slow down and smell the roses. You will be glad you did. Oh, and it helps the sac rate tremendously!!
Well Steve, that's very good advice, no doubt. Thank you. It seems we share the love for this beautiful cave! And I agree that the method of transportation is a question of style.Quote:
Originally Posted by speleodiver
I've been to about 2200' in the lower section, but I heard from Edd that it goes for several thousand more and way off the map.
And that might be stretching it just a little on my 95's.
As to the complacency issue, I don't think I could add much to the discussion other than to admit that I have to fight hard to keep it from biting me.
And when it comes to instruction, I would know even less about that.
Most of my diving skills were self-taught and emulated from role models.
I suppose for someone who is not very determined to perform excellent in the water column, even the best instructor will only be of very limited use.