Full NO VACANCY

I agree with Slüdge. It's evident that the carrying capacity is based on the OW spring basin, where cave divers spend only a small fraction of their dives. As Shirley noted, the limits should count cave divers and OW divers separately.

Mike

I don't think it's "evident" that the policy is based on carrying capacity of the OW spring basin, or that MSSP is run by idiots.

Total number of people affect the water, the grounds, the basin, the spring, the site overall. We all know that what is done on the surface has as big if not bigger impact than what is done in the water. I don't think they say "the park is full." They say they've reached the daily limit for visitors. Whether it's 20 open water and 20 cave, or 40 total of any mix is for those who make the policy. As usual the way to change it or return to some past formula is for cave divers to talk with those who make the policy and to maybe present a cogent argument that 20 open water divers are way more damaging than 20 cave divers.

I can also see that they need to make it easy on the rangers to admit and deny. I'm sure they get plenty of grief as it is.

As the population increases, and the economy improves, the sheer number of people (and divers) visiting state parks will increase and sooner or later they will have to impose limits on all state park visitations. It might be wise for cave divers to get involved with these decisions now, rather than one-liners about how the park is run by idiots. That attitude is sure to allow more cave divers into the park (not)!

Remember, "they" are reading the forum posts. By the way, anyone know what the policy actually is and the rationale?

skip

I called Manatee Springs State Park. The woman who is there right now today at this time says the capacity for divers is 36 open water divers per day and 24 cave divers per day. You show up to dive they sometimes assume you mean open water unless you specifically say cave diving. They almost always reach the open water capacity, but rarely reach the cave diver capacity (so she says). Very nice lady.

Sometimes the particular person is not clear on the policy, so whether the person the OP talked to thought it was 36 total divers or the lady I just talked with is not clear about the policy is still a question. But it makes little sense to have two different numbers if it's some kind of odd summing operation.

And no solo divers, of either stripe.

And the numbers come from the state biologists and is based on the "delicacy" of the system in terms of flora and fauna, including the discharge flow, capacity of spring run, and other factors. Apparently there is a complex formula and the biologists plug in the numbers and out comes the capacity figures. I'm still tracking down the biologists who do this to get more exact info. I bet Bill Huth could help out here.

skip

I don't think they're idiots. Having studied wildlife biology as an undergrad and worked on such things as visitor capacity of wilderness conservation areas, I'm sure that they're capable people trying to do their best to balance a variety of concerns. But in the state-managed areas that I know well enough to have an opinion about (mostly in VT and ME), the biologists only make recommendations. Then the bureaucrats make policy.

Another issue is that park staff are not always familiar with specific policies. I tend to think of Manatee only as a place to go cave diving. But cave diving is only a small part of what goes on there and has to be attended to by the rangers. They have a lot to deal with besides keeping track of divers, and having different numbers for cave divers and OW divers adds another wrinkle. Especially when the divers may not identify themselves to the rangers as one kind or the other. I'm sure it gets confusing on a busy day. But discussions about the issues and constructive conversations with the rangers ought to clarify things.

I should also say that since I started diving in Florida state parks in 2004, my interactions with state park staff have been uniformly positive. I always regard our annual family Florida Parks pass as money well spent.

Mike

We showed up one morning when the OW limit was full! (this was about a month ago)

At first , the ranger said , no diving since they were full. I noted that we were cave diving.
She said , Oh OK , come on in and register...
I always mention that we are cave diving etc.

Thanks!
Jean

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/parks/pla...sStatePark.pdf
See page 46 of this document.

So no more than 18 scuba and 12 cave divers in the water at any one time?

Yes, that's how I read it, plus the 36/24 daily total.

skip

I quit going to Manatee - the most beautiful cave is beyond 3k feet - cannot get there w/o dpv. So i also quit buying annual pass which i did for over 10yrs - my vote by $$$, State can shove my drop in where their "thinkers" are burning my taxpayer money. Besides dpv i have a beef with state park rulers over solo diving and access hours. Luckily i still have enough caves to visit. Manatee becomes another "nazi" site besides Blue Volusia.

Locals should dig a pit that would put divers in 10K from the entrance zone and make another "Ginnie spring" business - that would make a heck of a cave diving park.

And for OW divers lining up at gates - why not to move 15 mins to the north to Fanning? They allow OW there and it is safely confined pool for a class... just a thought.

And Fanning is completely blown out right now.