How often do you run a line?

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Originally Posted by RN

This is within some agency standards. In fact, making a primary tie off in a safe exit zone is within standards. So Peacock I doesn't count as not running a line.

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Like you said - Counts for some of us (safe exit standards), and not for others of us (o/w standards).

I would say it counts, although I do not run a line at P1.

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Originally Posted by quarrydiver

even if the gap between open water and the overhead is as little as 1 ft.

If one wants to make an analogy to the above water world, I would equate running lines as the equivalent of wearing a seat belt in a car. Unless one is involved in some sort of accident/collision, the seat belt really doesn't do much; i.e. one can get away with not wearing a seat belt much of the time. But it only requires one incident to make the difference between coming out of an accident unscathed versus a severe injury or worse. That's why not wearing a seat belt is illegal.

Marius

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Marius Clore
NACD Equipment & Technology Chair

All opinions are personal.

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While driving my truck around the family farm, I do not find a logical argument from a safety standpoint, nor am I compelled by law, to wear a seat belt. Absolutes are rarely so.

I feel the same about running a line at P1.

I support the open communication. If the mods feel it is bad for the board, or our sport, why not create a private vetted forum? Are the logistics just that time, or monetary consuming. I would volunteer some time to vett members.

I find follow-up posts annoying me when they vilify/defend the poster (usually in a smarmy manner) without actual discussions of why you personally do something. That seems to be the case here.

Also, the poll has to draw lines somewhere. While my answer isn't pigeonholed quite the same as othersin the same category, I feel pretty comfortable with my answer.

So... I voted for sometimes and sometimes on both.

Rationale:
1) If I'm not familiar with the layout of the entrance OR low viz OR it's been a while ("permanent" line does get moved) OR it's low flow (yes, just low flow is enough), I'll run a line. If I'm entering a high flow, familiar cave where it's next to impossible to not be ejected near the entrance, I'll skip the primary.

2) On jumps, for caves I know AND in large tunnels AND with high flow AND with clear viz, I'll *SOMETIMES* (lots of caveats) do a visual for a first jump off the mainline. Never a second visual, no matter how tempting that I "know where I'm going".

I'm thinking Jackson Blue and Ginnie in general for both of these. AGAIN, NOT FOR A NEW DIVER, but for someone familiar, I can't imagine making it back to the entrance of either (even in zero viz) and not being pushed out (#1).

For #2, there's places in JB and Devil's where one of the "AND" reasons is not true and a jump reel is used. There's other places where all are true and the first visual is skipped.

So, that's my answer. Let the flippant replies commence...

-Tom

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Forrest, with respect, no-one has earned that title. And no one ever should. Learning dies when we elect emperors, kings, tsars, caesars etc..

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And so do arrogant cave divers, when they don't follow procedures developed by analyzing 50 years of body recoveries.

Ken isn't the Czar, he is just stating evidence from all the accident reports. Sadly a lot of the accident victims were just like you, they thought they were immune.

Do what you want, leave the rest of us out of the discussion!

To misquote a famous USSR Premier, "We will recover you".

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Originally Posted by Marc Bryan

If the mods feel it is bad for the board, or our sport, why not create a private vetted forum? Are the logistics just that time, or monetary consuming. I would volunteer some time to vett members.

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We have, but Andrew wants to drag the entire cave diving community into using his non-standard techniques. We won't censor or ban him, but I will say that if you follow him, you will end up a Lemming.

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Originally Posted by rec2tec

AGAIN, NOT FOR A NEW DIVER, but for someone familiar,

So, that's my answer. Let the flippant replies commence...

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No flippant reply,but where is the dividing line of new cave diver and someone familiar. The only reason I mention this because cave diving is peer pressure oriented. I know intro divers who fight for the right to dive doubles at a site because they don't want to stand out as someone different while heading to the water with a single tank. I have seen newer cave divers just nod when the dive plan calls for a visual because they don't want to be the person in the team to say they aren't comfortable with a dive plan,and show their newness to their buddies. Claim of familiarity of a cave system,is something that concerns me because complacancy seems to occur. I know two very veteran cave divers who have died in the last 5-6 years because they knew the system extremely well,and evidence suggests they had some very creative rules for gas planning. Where do we leave new cave diver and enter familiarity-is it 200 cave dives?....

Our instuctor taught us to start/run a line from open water to a secondary tie off just inside the cavern zone and then on to the permanent line. So we do that at every cave, even P1. Even though the distance from open water to either line in P1 is short, running a line here (or Ginnie or JB) allows us to maintain/practice our reel/spool techniques.

Interesting thread - thanks.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Not to mention Hansel and Gretel...

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So what's the take away here ? Guidelines should not be edible ?

:-)

There can be value in developing the habit of doing the same thing the same way every time, especially in a potentially stressful or dangerous situation.

Working as a paramedic and an ER, ICU, & critical care transport RN, I have developed a lot of habits that save me time and make things go more smoothly when I'm in a hurry. I always set up my equipment the same way. I always do procedures in the same way. I always wear my seat belt, in my own vehicle, or in an aircraft or ambulance. If I have to unhitch my seat belt to do something, I buckle it back up as soon as I sit down. I don't have to wonder whether a piece of equipment works and has all its pieces and parts - I know that it does because I checked it. I don't re-invent the way I do my job every day. There are so many uncontrollable aspects of the job that I like to control the variables that I can.

In cave diving (a perfect sport for the OCD critical care nurse) I always run a line at jumps and gaps. I don't have to think about it, I just do it.

Trying to develop good habits doesn't mean being rigid - as long as the habits are well thought out and you're willing to change to new habits when new data shows that they are superior. Having a solid base in practice, good habits, and being organized allows for more flexibility when flexibility is needed.

I confess to having a little ICU nurse OCD to go along with my ER nurse ADD. I wear my seatbelt driving my farm truck on a woods road or in a hayfield at 5 mph. Do I need it? Not likely. But I put it on without taking time to consider "Do I or don't I?" when I get in the truck.

Last week I wanted to get something out of the glove box of my truck, which was parked in the driveway. I got in, put on my seatbelt, opened the glove box, got what I wanted, closed the glove box, took off the seatbelt, and got out. I was halfway back to the house before it struck me what I'd done.

Mike

What does it cost you to always run a line? 1-2 minutes as opposed to a possible disaster, I think this poll so far if accurate has revealed a serious disregard for following a very basic safety rule, 32% don't always run a reel at jumps!!!! and some of you actually think this is somehow ok or acceptable? Not running a reel from OW to the mainline if the mainline is almost in OW (although I don't agree) I can understand, but doing visual jumps, what the hell is wrong with you?