When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

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Originally Posted by Gary

One one my earliest memories of cave diving was revolves around someone who said the same thing about Little River.

He took the time to explain his theories to the cave class at the entrance, did his dive, got lost off the line in a silt out. They recovered his body still 1300' in.

Clearly his theory was incorrect.

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Bollocks. The guy had poor skills, and was huge. Also he was an idiot. He probably would have died if he'd turned on sixths.

That example always pisses me off. There are too many competing hypotheses as to why he died. You picked an arbitrary one. How you can possibly claim that his death wasn't as a result of - oh - being lost off the line in a silt out I'll never understand.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

When people ignore seat belt rule,or choose not to wear a helmet on a motorcycle,then they leave us dirty laundry, there are no negative consequences. When we screw up cave diving and have an accident there are concerns by landowners,and can have loss of sites. To illustrate,when there was an accident not too long ago,the owner of a site that we had recently gotten open,suddenly had some concern,and we had to give assurances that this wouldn't happen there. Wonder why some systems are guided systems? At least under a guided system there is greater assurance that the rules will be followed.

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OK, but let me reiterate. The vast majority of cave divers are breaking the rules. But since it's taboo to talk about it, they're breaking them in random, ad-hoc manners, and we are all reinventing the wheel. Over and over again. Often badly.

Not to mention that you dive with an offender. When you stop diving with FW and his collection of Home Depot plumbing parts, I'll quieten down.

Andrew, I've gone all over the rules of accident analysis, and I can't find one that says anything about homemade rebreathers.

And a homemade rebreather isn't any more hazardous than diving on open circuit regulators that were serviced by someone with no formal training in servicing regulators. And I see that all the time.

Diving on ANY rebreather is way more hazardous than diving on OC. The statistics clearly show that. So I definitely disagree with your second statement. Furthermore, I ahve to tell you that my regs are a lot safer after I've finished servicing them than after the halfwit at my LDS with his "formal" day or two of training.

And it takes enormous hubris to use a homemade rebreather that hasn't been checked or approved by any agency. It's not breaking the Sacred 5, but it IS using a device not approved by any agency.

Building your own rebreather is clearly in the category of making your own rules. If for no other reason, because you have no formal training on the unit.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

OK, but let me reiterate. The vast majority of cave divers are breaking the rules. But since it's taboo to talk about it, they're breaking them in random, ad-hoc manners, and we are all reinventing the wheel. Over and over again. Often badly.

Not to mention that you dive with an offender. When you stop diving with FW and his collection of Home Depot plumbing parts, I'll quieten down.

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Year 2011,issue 2 of Underwater Speleology page 5.... this list of guide's for Devil's cave system can be located at....

Trained cave divers are now the problem,not untrained OW divers entering the systems. How can we make the caves safer and guarantee the rules are followed? Have some cave police aka guide

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Year 2011,issue 2 of Underwater Speleology page 5.... this list of guide's for Devil's cave system can be located at....

Trained cave divers are now the problem,not untrained OW divers entering the systems. How can we make the caves safer and guarantee the rules are followed? Have some cave police aka guide

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Oh, come now. You can't keep Andrew out that easy - he'll just come in from the river.

And it's not like the Ginnie Springs owners are unaware of his activities and opinions on this - and yet they still let him in.

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Originally Posted by Gary

One one my earliest memories of cave diving was revolves around someone who said the same thing about Little River.

He took the time to explain his theories to the cave class at the entrance, did his dive, got lost off the line in a silt out. They recovered his body still 1300' in.

Clearly his theory was incorrect.

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Speaking of which: does anyone have a link to an online accident report including this accident? It's so old I don't know where to look.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Year 2011,issue 2 of Underwater Speleology page 5.... this list of guide's for Devil's cave system can be located at....

Trained cave divers are now the problem,not untrained OW divers entering the systems. How can we make the caves safer and guarantee the rules are followed? Have some cave police aka guide

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Paternalistic nonsense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Paternalistic nonsense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Quis custodibit spectatores-this is self evident.

Just think of all the money in airfare you'll save,and the less hassles with TSA.

This is going in circles.

The last thing I want is for people to die. We differ not on our wilingness to accept deaths, but in our beliefs about how to prevent them.