Negativity in Cave Diving Politics

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Originally Posted by midway

Paying $400-$500 bucks you have unrealistic expectations. Yes, during some of my training I flew in and travel related expenses outweighed training costs. But before undertaking overhead training, it's a good idea to be a competent OW technical diver with solid basics.

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I just find this kind of interesting. I remember being told in the late 80s, that if you want to learn to dive doubles for advanced wreck diving, that one should go to NCFL to get cave trained. I started diving when I was living in Gainesville. I progressed from OW, to AOW, through 3-4 PADI courses before taking Cavern and NACD Intro. I really started diving in caves because I was living in G-ville in the late 80s/early90s, and that was just where my learning path, and circle of dive buddies took me.

I know things have changed a ton since then, but it just seems odd that now I am hearing "go refine your tech skills in OW before going near a cave". Maybe this is right? Heck, I am just trying to make sense of all the new Cert levels and requirements. Looking back, it seemed pretty simple. Now I have no idea what training I should seek next. Opinions seem to be all over the map, so even saying to get mixed gas qualified before cave?? ...JMHO

Adler, how long was your original openwater class?

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Originally Posted by kensuf

Adler, how long was your original openwater class?

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It was two weekends. PADI at the Aquatic Center that used to be right by the Outback on Archer Rd. I think it might have been Friday Night Classroom, then Pool Drills. 2nd weekend we went to Ginnie, and Blue Grotto. I don't think I hit salt water until shortly after for a W.Palm Trip.

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Originally Posted by Adler

I just find this kind of interesting. I remember being told in the late 80s, that if you want to learn to dive doubles for advanced wreck diving, that one should go to NCFL to get cave trained. I started diving when I was living in Gainesville. I progressed from OW, to AOW, through 3-4 PADI courses before taking Cavern and NACD Intro. I really started diving in caves because I was living in G-ville in the late 80s/early90s, and that was just where my learning path, and circle of dive buddies took me.

I know things have changed a ton since then, but it just seems odd that now I am hearing "go refine your tech skills in OW before going near a cave". Maybe this is right? Heck, I am just trying to make sense of all the new Cert levels and requirements. Looking back, it seemed pretty simple. Now I have no idea what training I should seek next. Opinions seem to be all over the map, so even saying to get mixed gas qualified before cave?? ...JMHO

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Times have changed and for the better. I got Mounted in the early 90's. Best underwater course I ever had. When I showed up the day before class I had 3000+ OW dives, was a Padi Master Instructor, but had zero deco experience, zero doubles experience. I jumped into Ginnie cavern to make sure I could handle the doubles and new dry suit I had purchased for the class. Holy Crap. About drowned. Lost the dry suit for the class. By the end of 10 18 hour days Tom had kicked enough butt that I at least had an idea of what squared away was supposed to look like. Now a days baby steps seem more available. You can find a doubles or OW sidemount class, you can get Nitrox training (if you want to call it that) from the locals dive shop, etc. The level of expectation both prior to and post cave class has been raised. That's a very good thing for safety and for the caves.

@Victor
Good answer. Although, what you're describing as high standard should be normal.

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Originally Posted by Adler

It was two weekends. PADI at the Aquatic Center that used to be right by the Outback on Archer Rd. I think it might have been Friday Night Classroom, then Pool Drills. 2nd weekend we went to Ginnie, and Blue Grotto. I don't think I hit salt water until shortly after for a W.Palm Trip.

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That was a pretty short course for the 1980s, but sadly many students no longer get a course that's even that long. Our local "openwater" shop teaches what is essentially a two day course. Pool sessions are Saturday morning, first dive is Saturday afternoon, Sunday are dives 2-4, certified as a diver that Sunday afternoon.

The results show. I've worked with some of their "graduates" -- there was a girl that couldn't weigh more than 100# soaking wet that was convinced she needed 16# of lead on her waist. I got her down to 4# and she was amazed at the night and day difference.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

Our local "openwater" shop teaches what is essentially a two day course..

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Our ONLY openwater shop.... who now have a 7 day presence at some spring I won't mention.

I thought I was aware of all the shops currently operating in Hogtown. So, I am not really sure whigh one your are trying not to mention by name.. In any case.

I thought I had a relatively decent OW Instructor. He was a cave diver, and seemed to give lots of 'tips' that were probably beyond a typical OW course. ie, gear streamlining etc. I remember a few hula hoops weighted down on one side in the pool. Kind of a fun exercise at that point trying to swim through withought hitting them. I don't think I have seen anyone else do that.

A bit off topic, but differences in standards, training levels and accepted methods surely gets very political. Its nice to have choices and a push for better training. It is sure nice to now have an open forum to get better context and opinions from experienced divers.

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Originally Posted by Adler

I thought I was aware of all the shops currently operating in Hogtown. So, I am not really sure whigh one your are trying not to mention by name.. In any case.

I thought I had a relatively decent OW Instructor. He was a cave diver, and seemed to give lots of 'tips' that were probably beyond a typical OW course. ie, gear streamlining etc. I remember a few hula hoops weighted down on one side in the pool. Kind of a fun exercise at that point trying to swim through withought hitting them. I don't think I have seen anyone else do that.

A bit off topic, but differences in standards, training levels and accepted methods surely gets very political. Its nice to have choices and a push for better training. It is sure nice to now have an open forum to get better context and opinions from experienced divers.

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Probably the one that won't fill a steel tank over 2500 psi and the instructor wears split fins and dives vertically... but that's just a guess.

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Originally Posted by Adler

A bit off topic, but differences in standards, training levels and accepted methods surely gets very political. Its nice to have choices and a push for better training. It is sure nice to now have an open forum to get better context and opinions from experienced divers.

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Was just trying to make the point that cave divers start somewhere and right now there is only one SHOP (lots of independents) that is local and teaches at the springs. No comment on the quality of instruction (not going to be first to throw a stone because I don't think I am exactly a quality instructor, but I am trying). The problem is the students they turn out as open water divers have a HIGH likelihood of progressing on to Cavern and Cave because of 1. Where they are 2. Where they teach . THIS is the problem you are describing in the nutshell, the quality of diver starts with open water and is likely not corrected EVER (ok eventually).

Again, just my opinions.

Tim