If LE wants to keep others from the info, they can do their own recovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Oh wait, they can’t. Only we can. “We have this info we gathered from the recovery and will share it will LE” is the move. We are not agents for them.
FIOA requests for the cave diving community to get the info that the cave diving community PROVIDED LE is bananas.
It certainly is unfortunate that Flordia divers are not given accurate and timely information on all cave diving related deaths. I cave dive out of Tulum Mexico and have read and reviewed the information for the two German divers that passed away in Calamba. The 5 page report was detailed and yet non-judgemental. The way it should be in my opinion. Allowed me to scrutinize the document and think about what mistake(s) did they make and if possible why did they make them? It reinforces the thought process of not allowing complacency to happen. It should be a must read for any cave diver. No real need to know their full names - perhaps correct first names to keep the context of the report accurate.
Flordia cave divers deserve the same information for them to learn from. Hope you can change how the leadership of the recovery people and more importantly the recovery organization thinks.
Actually law enforcement could do their own recoveries. There are members that are cave divers, and they have dive teams that could get cave trained, hence we are a convenience, not a necessity. That being said a protracted recovery while a team is assembled means that system is closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
There’s no way on earth any police chief is going to have a cave diving recovery team. Ain’t happenin. Never has. Never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
As someone who works directly with multiple police agencies, the chances of a pd or sheriff?s office having a cave diving recovery team is near zero. Just like multiple governmental agencies will not allow their scientific divers to cave dive. They typically require a private contractorQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
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Did you ever know Henry Nicholson? He is famed for the Nicholson tunnel in Peacock, 500 cave diving award called the Nicholson award etc He was instrumental for setting up the paradigm we have,but yes there was a plan to develop a team of law enforcement. Scientific technical diving is allowed,and the standards are described in the DEP diving manual.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
So it didn’t happen.
Okay.
Interesting. I never knew this. Thanks KellyQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Didnt know Nicholson personally. In the current world of law enforcement a cave diving recovery team is never going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
As for DEP, there are agencies allowing their employees to cave dive for work still. But it is becoming more and more rare due to liability and insurance. I know you have experience working with agencies as a cave diver. I have first hand knowledge from the governmental side of things and it is quite clear less and less governmental agencies want to allow their employees in caves so they use contractors.
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I've got quite a bit of experience working in the scientific diving world. While the AAUS manual includes technical and scientific diving, there are not a lot of programs that allow cave or technical diving at their institution specifically because of perceived risks and liability concerns.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Yep. Exactly ny point.Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
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So, here... IUCRR once again impeding accident analysis!Quote:
Originally Posted by jcr
In the aviation community, it is widely recognized that accident analysis is instrumental to safety improvement and accident rates reduction. Evidence recoveries and accident investigations are handled by the NTSB, a specialized government organization with the mission to "investigate accidents and events to determine their probable cause, examine safety issues, and develop recommendations to prevent similar accidents and events in the future.". Factual reports are published timely with great detail. In general aviation (that most closely resembles recreational cave diving), most accidents do not involve crimes and thus law enforcement's role in the NTSB investigations is limited. So why is it any different in the cave diving community and why would anyone believe that recovery and investigation efforts are a law enforcement business foremost (limited in scope to establishing presence/absence of crime which in this case is most likely absent anyways) and not a safety improvement concern?
It's not like anything in that report will be a surprise to anyone. Analyse your gas, mark the tank and verify what you're switching to.
Operating an airplane ist much more complex than diving.
Btw: Thanks to Charlie, Jon and the others who donate their time to do this.
This sport is only as safe as divers are risk conscious, aware, and constantly looking for ways to improve. It's not healthy to ever think you've learned it all, are as knowledgeable, safe, and skilled diver as you could be.
We will see!Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
So, gas switching is all too simple, Andrew was a fool, we are so much smarter, there is nothing for us to learn here?Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
You seriously underestimate the complexity of cave diving. Take it from somebody who is familiar with both disciplines.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Yes, it is simple, and so is analyzing your gas.Quote:
Originally Posted by oceancurrent
I never called anyone a fool or even implied as much. But the truth is that we see the SAME stuff over and over and over again. Just shortly before or after that accident someone else switched to a hot mix in France at 180' and died. Recently two people in Roaring river have knowingly or used or switched to the wrong gas and one died one got lucky. People deliberately ignore safety standards, happens all the time and it's fine until it isn't... beating around the bush and acting as is there is oh so much to learn from every accident is silly.
In contrast to you, I'm actually reading all reports that come out to look for new stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by oceancurrent
You just complained in the other thread that no reports are being published even though a bunch of reports were published. Read them and please tell me what new things you have learned.
You are right a majority of the time there is nothing new to learn, and there has only been once in 20 years when disseminating information quickly was important because of bad air,but I respect the desire to know. A psychologist/cavediver I know with a Phd made this comment to me about people wanting know about accident analysis quickly. His comment was knowing the specifics and causes to an accident was a psychological defense mechanism so that individuals can validate performing the activity by saying, "I would never do that", hence I am safe. I am paraphrasing his comments,but made for an interesting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Speaking as a person that took a decade off from cave diving myself, I think one of the lessons that a person could learn from the 2022 fatality is the concept of recency and skill degradation. A person may have had all of the training and experience in the world, but if they took a break, they probably have had some skill erosion and should work slowly back up to those bigger dives rather than just jumping into the deep end of the pool.
I believe that, because that's what I'm thinking when I read reports too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Although, I do dive solo even though some reports say solo was a factor... that part I usually don't agree with.
The solo part I think it's debatable. The not using a HUD, no BOV or neckless, not analyzing, using a shut-off, using 3rds with stages and dropping early is pretty clear cut IMHO. I wonder how many people have actually ever changed their config or process after reading a report. Would be worth a poll.
Very valid point. We have experienced this scenario with multiple accidents from the guys from Wisconsin who had an accident at Madison, and the couple accidents we had workshop weekend. The couple time a year cave diver seems to be more susceptible.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
Oh, you can bet your hat that I read all the reports - it is my job to be as informed as I can! You are brash to make such claims!Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
I pointed out that the report about Andrew is missing. That's all! As you know, I wrote a commentary on the Cow report as soon as it was released. Definitely have not complained that no reports have been published!
You won't be the first cave diver to believe that you know it all, have nothing to learn, and won't make a mistake somebody else made. I little bit of humility won't hurt you, you know!
I’ve flown 1250 hours in the last 24 months, Multi, complex, tail, sea, and acrobatic. Likely more hours in that two yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by oceancurrent
than any person any of you know anywhere, and I can tell you, cave diving is way easier than flying.
What is there to learn really? Even great divers can get complacent? We don’t need a report to know that. That the 5 rules of cave diving work every single time, except for Parker? A report going to help with that?
We don’t have a right to know, we have a desire to know. There’s a difference. Get over it.
How can you tell someone’s a pilot?
Don’t worry, they’ll tell you.
Don?t forget about my 4 aircraft, 3 houses, 4 Rolexes, 3 Insurance agencies, 5 corporations or the hot 22 year old red head I?m dating.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
If you think cave divers have an ego, they have nothing on pilots. Cave diver and pilot, holy crap what an ego. Cave diver, pilot and rich? can?t fit a head through a door.
I guess it?s a long way from the days I was asking you to help me get a job at JetBlue.
I never said I was humble.
And I type this as I eat from a ristorante in Venice after a nice gondola ride with the hot girlfriend.
I wasn’t the JetBlue guy. James maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
Maybe it wasn’t JetBlue. Almost certain it was you. Back in 2011-2012 time frame. Did you live in Orlando? Who knows. Seems like a lifetime ago. Still like ya, whether you helped me or not. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
I guess I'm not getting the joke. Where it that? Venice in Alabama? Who the fvck would go to Venice in February, let alone sit it a gondola in below 50 degrees shitty weather. You should sell one of those advisor to get a travel advisor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
It was 66 degrees and sunny yesterday. We’re going skiing in Switzerland tomorrow. It’s pretty great here. The weather does suck today though.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WTrMuZOZvMQuote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27