Ginnie

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Originally Posted by rddvet

If you only dive ginnie 2-3 times a year a pass isnt worth it. Though I will say only having ro fill out that form once a year is awesome. I had a copy from their website I used a pdf editor to complete with all of my info which made life alot easier


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That is brilliant. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Unfortunately self responsibility seems to factor very lowly. If someone is having a bad day and silting a lot, or attempting a passage that is beyond their level, instead of turning and exiting, the need to push on is there, mutually exclusive to the impact that is caused. I did a survey a couple years ago for an article on cave conservation education for UWS, and one factor I found is that newer cave divers cave conservation training was between zero and 30 minutes duration for their course. The NSSCDS and NACD made cave conservation a primary mission,but for some of these other agencies, the education in this area is almost nonexistent. So, how can we expect newer cave divers to have a regard for cave conservation when their education and training to protect the resource practically doesn't exist. So when I say we are generally divers who go in cave and not cave divers, because cavers understand the resource and protect it, we don't.

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So, i am completely new. Probably part of the problem, well certainly part of the problem to some extent. It is a complex problem but I'd like to address just part of it from a newbies perspective. I understand that ultimately I should never touch anything in the Cavern/Cave. In reality I know that everyone does touch something in the Cavern/Cave. Here's my point, that I have been slowly circling, it would be incredibly helpful to me, as a newbie, to know specific locations, formations, etc. in the various systems that are particularly delicate and/or in danger of being damaged and what should be done or how best to avoid inflicting further damage beyond a blanket, "just don't touch anything" rule. Aside from word of mouth, and Caveatlas (thank you CaveAtlas) it is still difficult to find specific information regarding these sites that need the most protection and ultimately my most focused attention when moving through these spaces. I love learning about the systems and appreciate any and all efforts/ information that will assist me in ensuring that they will not be destroyed by my presence. To those working on surveys of the systems, Thank You, and might I add that it might be helpful to make notation of the most fragile areas within and find a way to collect this information and provide it to the community of divers.

Just my perspective

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Originally Posted by Silverhippi

That is brilliant. Thank you!

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Just dont fill in the witness part. I always dive with my wife so i put her info in and she signed it and I hers the night before we drove up, obviously with thr date of the dive. For a long time it was fine, then someone decided a staff member had to sign. So if you do it leave the witness part blank


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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Unfortunately self responsibility seems to factor very lowly. If someone is having a bad day and silting a lot, or attempting a passage that is beyond their level, instead of turning and exiting, the need to push on is there, mutually exclusive to the impact that is caused. I did a survey a couple years ago for an article on cave conservation education for UWS, and one factor I found is that newer cave divers cave conservation training was between zero and 30 minutes duration for their course. The NSSCDS and NACD made cave conservation a primary mission,but for some of these other agencies, the education in this area is almost nonexistent. So, how can we expect newer cave divers to have a regard for cave conservation when their education and training to protect the resource practically doesn't exist. So when I say we are generally divers who go in cave and not cave divers, because cavers understand the resource and protect it, we don't.

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That's very different than my experience; in my course, the emphasis on conservation was literally built into everything. Every discussion had during the class came back to being aware of the environment you're in and doing everything you can to prevent damaging it (or minimizing the damage if something does go wrong).

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Originally Posted by Silverhippi

So, i am completely new. Probably part of the problem, well certainly part of the problem to some extent. It is a complex problem but I'd like to address just part of it from a newbies perspective. I understand that ultimately I should never touch anything in the Cavern/Cave. In reality I know that everyone does touch something in the Cavern/Cave. Here's my point, that I have been slowly circling, it would be incredibly helpful to me, as a newbie, to know specific locations, formations, etc. in the various systems that are particularly delicate and/or in danger of being damaged and what should be done or how best to avoid inflicting further damage beyond a blanket, "just don't touch anything" rule. Aside from word of mouth, and Caveatlas (thank you CaveAtlas) it is still difficult to find specific information regarding these sites that need the most protection and ultimately my most focused attention when moving through these spaces. I love learning about the systems and appreciate any and all efforts/ information that will assist me in ensuring that they will not be destroyed by my presence. To those working on surveys of the systems, Thank You, and might I add that it might be helpful to make notation of the most fragile areas within and find a way to collect this information and provide it to the community of divers.

Just my perspective

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These are tough questions to answer because sometimes they can be contingent on the system. If you have a high flow system and my forward propulsion is dependent on cave contact, then I will, trying my best to contact places other people have touched. Once I reach spots where the flow is less, then I resort to kicking, and avoid physical contact. If I am in a low flow system, I do everything to avoid contact with anything. If I scooter then I use the speed appropriate to the passage, and get off the trigger and swim when the passage demands it due to size. Kudos for asking the questions you ask, and having the desire to learn and be a better cave diver.

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That's very different than my experience; in my course, the emphasis on conservation was literally built into everything. Every discussion had during the class came back to being aware of the environment you're in and doing everything you can to prevent damaging it (or minimizing the damage if something does go wrong).

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The is awesome, and sounds like a great class. In some of my research, this is less common.

To add to what Kelly said, learning to read the cave and utilize the flow to your advantage will help you minimize and /or avoid the need to pull yourself along in many places, even in very high flow.

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Originally Posted by Silverhippi

So, i am completely new. Probably part of the problem, well certainly part of the problem to some extent. It is a complex problem but I'd like to address just part of it from a newbies perspective. I understand that ultimately I should never touch anything in the Cavern/Cave. In reality I know that everyone does touch something in the Cavern/Cave. Here's my point, that I have been slowly circling, it would be incredibly helpful to me, as a newbie, to know specific locations, formations, etc. in the various systems that are particularly delicate and/or in danger of being damaged and what should be done or how best to avoid inflicting further damage beyond a blanket, "just don't touch anything" rule. Aside from word of mouth, and Caveatlas (thank you CaveAtlas) it is still difficult to find specific information regarding these sites that need the most protection and ultimately my most focused attention when moving through these spaces. I love learning about the systems and appreciate any and all efforts/ information that will assist me in ensuring that they will not be destroyed by my presence. To those working on surveys of the systems, Thank You, and might I add that it might be helpful to make notation of the most fragile areas within and find a way to collect this information and provide it to the community of divers.

Just my perspective

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Don't touch anything that isn't clearly solid rock that has been touched previously. :)

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Originally Posted by kensuf

Don't touch anything that isn't clearly solid rock that has been touched previously. :)

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Ding Ding Ding

My first instructor was very staunch on don't touch anything anywhere and don't listen to the people that say it's Ginnie, so just pull and glide. That's followed me through my diving. It seems everybody thinks you constantly have to pull everywhere in Ginnie and then since it's OK there then it's Ok at Peacock too. I pull and glide at Ginnie, but only when I have to and only in areas where there's already been lots of pulling and gliding going on. If I don't see obvious marks of others I avoid it. There seems to be alot of pull, pull, pull.

I'm sure my first instructor didn't mean never pull and glide. He was simply trying to force into our minds that if you're going to touch it, you better make sure it's absolutely necessary or appropriate.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

Don't touch anything that isn't clearly solid rock that has been touched previously. :)

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Yep, sometimes that "clearly solid rock" turns out to actually be clay.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Ding Ding Ding

My first instructor was very staunch on don't touch anything anywhere and don't listen to the people that say it's Ginnie, so just pull and glide. That's followed me through my diving. It seems everybody thinks you constantly have to pull everywhere in Ginnie and then since it's OK there then it's Ok at Peacock too. I pull and glide at Ginnie, but only when I have to and only in areas where there's already been lots of pulling and gliding going on. If I don't see obvious marks of others I avoid it. There seems to be alot of pull, pull, pull.

I'm sure my first instructor didn't mean never pull and glide. He was simply trying to force into our minds that if you're going to touch it, you better make sure it's absolutely necessary or appropriate.

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Pull and glide is a term that probably should be removed from our lexicon. Pull and pull would suggest high flow system where physical contact is needed, but if a person can glide, then swimming may be possible instead.

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Originally Posted by Jack Hammer

Yep, sometimes that "clearly solid rock" turns out to actually be clay.

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If you can't tell the difference between a bleached rock that has been manhandled by others and a clay bank then don't touch anything.

It's always amusing to me when old timers attempt to pass the logic that cave conservation was taught more back in the day. I took an intro to cave class from a prior NACD president (who was absolutely an old timer) less than 10 years ago who taught the "Little River Leap", where you kick off the cave walls the way a frog would.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

It's always amusing to me when old timers attempt to pass the logic that cave conservation was taught more back in the day. I took an intro to cave class from a prior NACD president (who was absolutely an old timer) less than 10 years ago who taught the "Little River Leap", where you kick off the cave walls the way a frog would.

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That same guy taught me that same trick in 1994.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

It's always amusing to me when old timers attempt to pass the logic that cave conservation was taught more back in the day. I took an intro to cave class from a prior NACD president (who was absolutely an old timer) less than 10 years ago who taught the "Little River Leap", where you kick off the cave walls the way a frog would.

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There are several phases. Actual old timers were for whom cave conservation was nonexistent. This can be surmised by reading some of the old literature with things like the LR leap, finger walking etc. Somewhere with the formation of development of agencies such as the NACD and NSS_CDS, this mission became a little more defined and entered the training standards and material. But, with the data from a survey that was conducted recently, with adequate population base of respondents to assess statistical significance, there were some patterns that arose that demonstrated less than adequate cave conservation training, especially with some agencies in particular. Hence to address your comment, it was nonexistent, then we had improved training in cave conservation,but data suggests we have digressed.