My shop owner, who has been teaching for over forty years, agrees with you 10,000 percent.Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr1997
Printable View
My shop owner, who has been teaching for over forty years, agrees with you 10,000 percent.Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr1997
gsxr1997,
........Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr1997
as far as the standards I 100% agree with you, its up to the instructor to further evaluate all students regardless if they meet all the criteria. to include metal state. but I think that this is pre judging like saying I wont teach somebody because of there race. why not have an open mind and meet with the parents of an 10-11 year old child?
the way I see it you mite better educate the parents so they can make a more informed decision rather than run down the road to another shop, if that child is truly not ready.
as an instructor your job is to educate new divers. so by showing your knowledge you mite have a chance to win the business of the parents and maybe the kid at a later date. there for creating a win win situation.
C'mon Russell..... you know it's killing you!!! ;)
Umm I was 8 when I got my first cert and 12 when I got my ADV, but back then it was differant. My OW would be considereed todays ADV class. Each person is a case bye case basis.
SLIM
I know it's killing me! However, my metal state is becoming increasingly rusty.Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Bix
plapin - I see now how this conversation has been redirected at me and my teaching ethics- thats ok, I have broad shoulders :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by plapingsxr1997,
........Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr1997
as far as the standards I 100% agree with you, its up to the instructor to further evaluate all students regardless if they meet all the criteria. to include metal state. but I think that this is pre judging like saying I wont teach somebody because of there race. why not have an open mind and meet with the parents of an 10-11 year old child?
the way I see it you mite better educate the parents so they can make a more informed decision rather than run down the road to another shop, if that child is truly not ready.
as an instructor your job is to educate new divers. so by showing your knowledge you mite have a chance to win the business of the parents and maybe the kid at a later date. there for creating a win win situation.
I will expand on what I have previously stated. I DO counsel the parents. citing bone development, lung development, and overall fitness to dive both physical and psychological. I also impress upon the parents that there may be a junior open water certification card,but the requirements to earn that card are no different than that of a standard open water certification. academic and water skills are not reduced.
If they still persist in obtaining instruction, I refer them to other NAUI instructors who will accept 10-11 year olds.
as I said in my initial post "I personallywill not not train any student less than 12 years of age"
As a free American,within the guidelines of my certifying agency and the law,I will exercise my right to make the choices as to who, what ,when ,and where I train students and will not apologize to anyone for my decision.
anything else you would like to know? :-)
10 year olds make great cavern divers, dad will do great things with the doppler system and everyone should chastise themselves for questioning his judgement. Clearly he has everything under control and folks online are just mean bullies.
I was personally won over by the deep insights, calm demeanor and rigid logic in his response.
I apologize to everyone; especially skip, for being a man, apparently white and having testosterone. I forgot about the guilt I should feel for things I have no control over.
And of course I understand the need to derail this thread given the personal connection you have with the subject in question...
PLAPIN....
http://uscavedivingteam.com/?page_id=82
From what I've been told, the subjects in question have decided the thread should be removed, and are seeking out an attorney. I guess see something say something can land you in court :-o
It would be interesting to get this event to be documented in a legal deposition from Marty and Spring, wouldn't it?
Not to sure that is a good idea if they want a positive outcome... Thoughts?
I just started the United States Coney DogTeam, we will be exploring the Slaw and Kraut dogs this month. I need members, and I don't care how old they are until we plunge into the footlong with raw onions.
It sure would be cool if this site was hosted in turkey.
It's sad that in order to talk freely we need a server in a country like turkey for petes sake...
http://www.agorahosting.com/
When you know you are wrong, then sue and intimidate.
The American Way.
Disgusting.
Slaw, we can handle. You start bringing that fermented cabbage to north Florida and we're going to tussle.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdiver211
Interesting turn. I am going to introduce some stuff as a non-lawyer. Perhaps the attorneys can help.
A couple of years ago there was a thread on ScubaBoard related to a dive operation which had a diver die because of a CO contaminated tank. One thing led to another, and the owner sued ScubaBoard. It wanted them to turn over the real names of the people who had made supposedly defamatory posts so they could be joined in the suit. The owner lived in Austria, and sued through Austrian courts and Austrian laws. As I understand it, that was important because like over half the states in the United States, Florida has enacted legislation to protect against Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation (SLAPPs) to prevent this sort of thing. Moreover, many states--and I believe Florida is one--allow a defendant to recover court costs and even punitive damages in the case of frivolous lawsuits. By filing in Austria, they pretty much guaranteed that they could not be required to pay court costs or punitive damages.
In this case, if it is a Florida person dealing with a Florida based entity (I assume CDF is Florida-based), then I would think that kind of forum-shopping would be limited.
I know the outcome was satisfactory to the ScubaBoard ownership, but he was not allowed to give details. Even though the outcome was apparently OK, ScubaBoard had to do a lot of fundraising to pay for their attorney fees.
I imagine CDF is checking with attorneys. As a non-attorney, my understanding is that truth is a strong defense, so if you posted stuff that is either true or you had good reason to believe as true, you should be safe. If you posted stuff you knew or should have known was untrue,....
At least the gastrointestinal results will warm your drysuit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Awesome! On what basis? Sure anybody can sue in the US, but I can't imagine this could add up to a slander suit considering there is proof that Marty was breaking the rules of the park.
What happened? Did he run to his mommy to tell on us and when she didn't care, he moved on to the next option. Pretty pathetic.
Sauerkraut is an excellent thing; kimchee is even better!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Fermentation just concentrates and enhances cabbage's natural goodness. :)
Mike
Read the link about SLAPPs. The goal is not to win a suit. There is no expectation that the suit will prevail. The goal is to intimidate, harass, and cause a threat such that the public forum will stop all participation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Man, if you feel that strong about it... Spend the fees taking the kid diving in mexico. No one would say anything about something like this there...
Sent from my RM-915_nam_usa_228 using Tapatalk
Just out of curiosity as I have never heard and was not diving back in the day did GI3 ever get sued for any of his posts? Now there were some really good ones that he posted. If he was not held liable then I definitely don't see anything here that is nearly as bad as his old posts. The way he went after Bill Rennaker and others is totally out of control and down right nasty.
That's back when free speech was still legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Regarding NAUI and the age limit, which is 18 at the time of the first cavern training dive.... I don't see anything that says the 10 year old (or 9 year old) was NAUI cavern or even an implied statement. He may very well be cavern trained with a different agency. I also do not see the reasoning behind contacting NAUI since this is obviously not a training issue - regarding NAUI classes. And this idea of a lawsuit? Hearsay, I say! Funny, how once someone says they think they heard.... people suddenly act like it's a fact.
I've taught 10-year olds to dive, OW, NAUI. I've also refused to teach 10-year olds to dive. I did not allow my daughter to learn until she was 14 and had snorkeled since she was 7, accompanied her mother and me on many dive trips - bubble watcher, gear go getter, etc. By the time she took the class, she was practically teaching it. I think she knew how to work the dive tables before she had memorized the multiplication tables. Was she mature enough? Probably. Was she capable physically and mentally? Probably. But I just could not see her fulfilling the buddy role in a high-stress situation in way that would have a favorable outcome. For her. I thought if her buddy died or was injured (me or her mother most likely to be her buddy), then the mental anguish on her would be more than diving was worth.
I suspect too often we look at the ability of young people in terms of what they can and cannot do and forget how they might handle the emotional side of a dive gone bad. It's one thing to be a parent and have a child die, it's quite another to be a child and have a parent die because of what you did or did not do and even if not your fault, what child can truly feel blameless?
The age to begin any diving OW to full cave is up to the parents, the child, and the potential instructor (and the agency regs of course). There is no magic number at which they are now capable - well, maybe there is, but it's not the same number for everyone.
skip (old bald ear-hair white guy wondering where all that testosterone went)
I'm guessing he never got sued because everyone knew what a sad and pathetic person he was - what would be the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
I suspect he had good lawyers too…..Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Dive safe,
Celia
Skip, it's a free country and for the most part people can do what they want. This guy is free to teach his son to dive at whatever age he chooses and wherever he chooses as long as he's not breaking the rules at that location or running afoul of child endangerment laws, which would be pretty tough considering the array of extreme sports in which kids participate. That being said, as a NAUI instructor he has an obligation to adhere to their training standards when teaching diving. It's pretty clear from this guy's response, and the fact that no one can think of any agency that allows cavern training at that age, that his son was not cavern certified. As such, this was by definition a training dive and it clearly violated NAUI training standards and park rules. He admitted as much in his response. NAUI has an obligation to police its own instructor corps and deal with training violations in an appropriate manner.
10,000,000% agree!!Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
There are very large differences between children in the 11-13 age bracket. I can give you a tale of two children 6months apart in birth Light Years apart in maturity. One is my Jr OW certified 11 almost 12 year old. She was ready to be certified at 11 does well in all the skills, We hope to dive much more this year than last. The other Child 6 months older I would not even think of letting him use a regulator in a 8 foot deep pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by plapin
I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I see nothing that says he was teaching his son under the auspices of NAUI, or any other agency. In fact, I thought he specifically avoided saying teaching or training. However, it may be that he is an instructor for many agencies, overseas perhaps too, so any assessment from posts regarding agency rules those on the forum can think of. I only saw rules for NACD, NSS/CDS and NAUI posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcr
And 3 years means the boy started at 7, or if as some say the boy is 8 or 9, then younger.
"My boy, who is 10, has been under my direction for MORE than 3 years now starting in basic O/W, Adv O/W in many different caverns with me, and yes, he's better than most. He's extremely bright, and has a love for cavern and ocean diving."
Park rules are park rules and that's between the rule-breaker and the ranger. Now if some think acting the snitch and calling the ranger to report suspected violation is a citizen's right or duty, well so be it. But to get up in someone's face at the dive site is not the same at all and then for posters on CDF to make up so much with so little factual information is very creative.
As for child endangerment, that's a real can of worms. A friend's 2 year old pulled the table cloth and spilled hot coffee on her shoulder and arm. They took her to the emergency room. First Degree burns, but no blisters - red and a general swelling. A tylenol and the kid was playing normally. ER "had" to report it to DCS who "had" to come do a home assessment based on potential child endangerment, maybe abuse even. Great people, great kid, and they have no idea what official report will be and have to allow DCS to come back into their home in 6 months for a follow up visit.
I don't think NAUI is relevant here; report what you saw to DCS. I can imagine a social worker getting wind of a 10-year old diving in caves with Dad's aid might indeed remove the kid from cave diving and from dad and mom as well! Especially if you include training requirements, age limits, etc.
How far does on see something? And upon seeing how far does one go in saying something?
skip
How can it be a training dive if the kid doesn't meet the prereqs (age) to take the class? It might have been training for something other than cavern, but not for cavern. Thus, Peacock was off limits, and the cavern at OG was off limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcr
Due to the thread derailing with copious amounts of GI3 references and for the most part the thread has run it's course, we are locking the thread.
I am sure there are more people who would like to post their opinions on GI3, internet civility, and how to dive while wearing a banana hammock, but we think closing the thread at this point is best.
Thanks,
CDF Moderators