I would support this... only if they listed all of the individuals that perished at a site, and then left a space at the bottom and just have it say... "Your Name Here?"Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
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I would support this... only if they listed all of the individuals that perished at a site, and then left a space at the bottom and just have it say... "Your Name Here?"Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Has anyone scratched tally marks into the warning sign yet... ?
IMHO, I agree. A memorial for these two does not belong IN the cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by barney00
However, Dillon was a 15yo kid being lead down a dangerous path by his father. No matter anyone's emotions, he truly was a victim.
I agree with a memorial like this here may be helpful in the future...it should have a statement something to the effect of:Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
"If your loved ones are diving here without qualifications like these two did, please intervene and demand they don't! You could be saving their lives! Your loved one needs cave training, decompression training, & mixed gas training to dive safely here.
If you choose to say nothing, please provide a photo of your loved ones to add to this memorial."
Mr. Spivey was made aware of the risks he was taking and was advised to get training, which he disregarded. Judging by his families statements "he didn't take chances, safety was a priority," his family wasn't aware of the severity of the risk he took, because it's easy to fool someone who doesn't have the knowledge...however a family member reading a statement like the above may then have just enough information to ask questions. I think the mother would have paid more attention to this than the current sign.
"honor these people by learning from their deaths. please don't dive without sufficient training and preparation." -aainslie
+1
Or like the memorial in the Ice Room at Ginnie -- gone. Who really wants to be reminded of deaths when they are planning a dive or on a dive; that is counter intuitive. In my opinion, if you really want to make an impression, the truth really needs to be told. The truth in all its gory, bloated, bloody, stoic, graphic detail. I feel that only then, when the "reaper" is humanized will consequences actually start to sink in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowjack
If people are driving to the Nest they already have their minds made up; they are going to dive. I feel these "memorials" are a coping mechanism for the bereaved; nothing more. The reaper signs are interesting but I have seen too many simple swim past them in the MX or in FL or anywhere. If someone is already there, do "we" as a community think the signs really work today? Are they as effective as they were when they were created? Is today's diver more thirsty for more -- to emulate movies and television? Cave diving has been made "sexy" and that is a fact that has to be dealt with.
After the recovery we did at Wayne's World, I asked the NACD to post the pictures of Jessic and or Joe on the cover of the Journal. Of course, no one wanted to do this. Why? Why not show the hard truth regarding consequences? Could it possible make people angry and not take training? The scene being played out today seems to be that of a delicate balance of "discussing" education and safety but not really wanting to educate -- show the pictures of the decedents, show the pictures of masks torn off or blood in the mask, show the bloated bodies that woefully expand drysuits to the seams. This is not about scaring but about telling the truth. It isn't so much as "telling" someone that have made a bad choice but there needs to be teeth; show them what other bad choices resulted in.
For those clawing to get "information" from the IUCRR; to what end? To me, it seems as though you are looking to selflessly fulfill a primordial desire to feel reassured that it wasn't you or you are trying to cope. Most IUCRR reports are simple statements of fact -- mask off, fins off, gas analysis, blood in mask, guideline torn, certifications. In my opinion, these do not help you make decisions on how to plan dives. These reports offer law enforcement to have details that otherwise they would not. In many cases, these details can be used to refute issues in court or simply to impeach testimony given at depositions.
Many of you know me and many don't. I try desperately not to argue unless I feel that I am right and I try to only, only post facts. In this case, the above are my thoughts and feelings after losing friends, working on recoveries and dealing with corpses.
Sorry guys, but I feel double posting is in place here; as I am against closing EN:
I have a suggestion: Rather than locking Eagles Nest up - how about prohibiting private dive shops and instructors from profiteering and teaching at this site!!! It is not suitable for teaching cave diving or deep diving or gas diving or teaching any kind of diving!
IUCRR, dive cert agencies and all of you concerned about this and other accidents in caves - post yet another sign that will explain that any kind of teaching of any kind of diving is not allowed on this public property.
I believe that the dive instructors and shops who bring students and show them this site are the main problem. Nest is a convenient, CHEAP, nearby site for many of the unscrupulous instructors who don't really care as far as they get their $$$.
Those of you who are not even from this area: in the years when the Nest was officially closed - there was busy traffic of midnight and early am "sneak" cave divers, but they were all in the know how. There was no teaching going on!
There was exploration and competent diving
When officials showed up - even in helicopters shining their lights into the divers' truck beds - concerned - yes - about game poachers.
Correct me if I am wrong but in the days of the Nest being a secret, not a "commercial" (for dive instructors) squirrel pit like it is now - there were no accidents, the cave was pristine, no condoms, garbage and excrements anywhere... yet there was exploration and a lot of competent diving going on.
I like the comparisons of mountain climbing or white water boating or endurance horse riding, dog sledding, balloon flying or other types of explorations, you get the point - these sports and activities somehow bring communities of participants who are aware of the beauties as well as the dangers of their favorite past time and they - opposite to some so called cave divers - do not try to shut their favorite gateways!!!
The Eagles Nest doesn't need to be locked up - only those who abuse and profit no matter what from this site should be eliminated. Let Eagles Nest be the "Mount Everest or Grand Canyon" or whatever to those who come from all over the world and competently explore this natural wonder in Hernando County, Florida.
WOW, by the way I just became aware of what was quoted on another diving web site as a price for cave diving related classes:
Advanced Nitrox/Deco procedures 600.00
Advanced Trimix 1200.00
cavern/intro 600.00
Apprentice cave 600.00
Cave 800.00
Technical Cave 800.00 - 1000.00
Hmmm, all that to an instructor who is using publicly owned Eagles Nest for $3/ day or even cheaper if he gets a yearly pass? Hope the FWC pays attention to this rather than to closing this fabulous property they have been entrusted to chaperone by the public!
There is a lot more to instruction than the park entry fees. When I did my cave instruction, the fees I paid were less than that, but they did not include the park entry fees. I had to pay that in addition. I have written about it before--I think what I paid for those classes and what I got as a result was one of the best bargains I ever got in scuba. In my case, I had a package that included lodging. I figured it out and determined that counting lodging, I paid less money per day for very intense instruction than I paid per day for two tank recreational boat dives in Hawai'i.Quote:
Originally Posted by jitka
As for the Trimix courses, there is once again a lot more to it than entry fees, and you can't tell for sure what the prices include. I paid more than that, but my gas and some of my boat fees were included.
I teach Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures, and at the price listed, I would probably not make a whole lot more than minimum wage.
What are you suggesting, price increase for instructors/shops teaching a class there?Quote:
Originally Posted by jitka
Now think realistic and logistic, who and how is it gonna be enforced? If there's going to be an increase price on access, it will affect anyone, including you, teaching or not.
It has been mentioned already, EN isn't just a cave diving spot.
Grrr, No I am not suggesting price increase, I am suggesting NO teaching allowed at the Nest!!! It is not a suitable place for instruction!
Please explain why you don't feel this site is suited to trimix instruction for someone that is a certified cave diver with considerable experience? Granted, I agree it's not suited for "skills dives" but as an instructed deep trimix dive I don't see an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by jitka
Because I have seen "considerable" cave diver experience being 2 Ginnie and 1 Peacock dives; and nothing against Ginnie and Peacock because I love these sites...
The Eagle's Nest death prior to these (2008/9?) was that of a cave certified diver with "considerable" experience (huge difference between that and cave diver). He had been to the Nest twice prior for TRIMIX training. The Nest is not to be triffled with. It is my opinion that he was just another certified cave diver that felt he was entitled to dive there on that point alone (certification). Too far, too fast or was that simply complacency? Or both?
Don't close anything! What's the point? This isn't a cave diver's only place; it is to be enjoyed by anyone!
I guess I'm a little confused. This thread went from a father and newspaper blaming the actual site for killing his son and now there seems to be a turn of the tide pointing the finger at instructors and training as a reason to restrict a sight. Sounds like WKPP methodology to me. I really just do not get how stupidity equates to a site, an instructor or training being the cause of the recent death. There was no training and therefore no instructor so how does one get to this conclusion. As an Instructor Trainer, I can assure you the training sites for Trimix beyond Level 2 or into the advanced level are very limited. Even sites for 1 and 2 or entry level are fairly limited. I personally know there are 2 sites open in Wakulla County that meet the standards but are not easily accessible. Out side that since Ocala closed, it is EN. Sure you can use OG but with the restriction, it is not a site I would use especially with 4 students 2 being intro divers as I have reports of happening there and even then it is only good for level 1. There will always be instructors that should not be teaching just like there are teachers in schools that have no business being there. The big difference is schools are filled with minors who have no say in their teachers. Cave diving has an age limit for a reason. Its called the age of responsibility. Responsibility is a funny thing. Some people have it and others will chase it to their deaths. We know who was chasing it here.
So my question is this, if you can't get the training then why would you need the site at all? I'm sensing a serious lack of knowledge within this post. Perhaps the better way to look at the issue is to look into the training. People trained at EN get hands on experience with an instructor. This gives them experience of the system with a knowledgable peson in the water. Later, they are ready to undertake the dive at EN instead of just jumping in and figuring it out as they go.
I agree with Walter, our sport has become highly publicized with flims like The Cave and Sactum. With that comes all the daredevils and idiots that feel this is the new way to prove their super human abilities. It happens evertime Hollywood produces a film. Fast and the Furious saw a major increase in rice burners hitting the streets. I know this becuase I made big money off kids chasing the rush while dropping 10's of thousands of dollars into cars that cost half as much as the accesories they put in them. Not once did I see anyone blame the streets when they crashed at high speed and died. I took some heat but in the end, studity is only controlled by it's possessor. Which we all know stupid is as stupid does!!
I will agree, there are issues with some instructors. Greed knows no limits when it has control. I can assure you instructors are being handed cards that do not need them. Wasn't long ago I was apporached to conduct a full cave instructor course. The perosn had just finished intro instructor a week eariler. This person was turned down for beginning the course because there simply has to be a time frame pass for development to occur. This DOES NOT happen in a week. Same thing with intro to full cave. I will NOT teach them back to back. Students need time to develop. I suspended and later dropped the same student who was coming up and would have been a very promising cave diver. But the need to collect cards and undertake dives beyond the level of training cut the path off for that person. The last I heard was a complaint about them having 74 intro cave dives and being stuck at intro level. This is the piss poor attitude where the line needs to get drawn. Too often, these new age student seem to think they should just have it. Why earn it like we did in the old days?? I just hope someday the training agencies step up and actually start yanking some cards and stop just talking about it. How much longer do we, the responsible divers and instructors need to preach about the instructor and training issues before a few heads roll and the point that stupidity and greed will not be tolerated. Until this happens, the agencies are no better then the crappy instructors that are produced under their watch. I have personally pointed out several violations and have seen nothing done. Are the agencies really that afraid to be the best agency there is? How well does it look upon an agency when instructors are left in place that leave students in a cave for Edd to save? How long is it before one of these instructors leads a student to death and face a lawsuit in which I may be called to testify? How long does the stupidity, greed and out right irresponsibility get to exist in our sport?
Uh? Why? what is your teaching background? What is your diving background? What is your Eagle's Nest background?Quote:
Originally Posted by jitka
Finally, now that we have all that info, what is your reasoning for your position?
I see nothing wrong with doing trimix training there if the divers are already full cave.
Really nice!:rollguyQuote:
Originally Posted by jitka
That's funny! You are seriously asking Jitka that question?Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
Sorry Walt. I think the 2009 death you're referring to was one of a pair of divers (Woodall/Snowden) who had bombed out of a trimix class that was being taught at EN. Neither of them was cave certified. The instructor caught a lot of flak for teaching there when the students were not certified. And despite his warnings to them to not come back until they were better trained, they found their way back during DEMA and paid the price. You might be confusing it with the case of Bill Bowden who died doing a solo dive (I think) on his Optima after getting back into cave diving following heart surgery. That was 2 years ago this month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Pickel
You are correct and those were the deaths I was referring to (Bird and Colt did the recovery -- I was actually glad I was at a party ant Jitka and Jakub's when Paul called). I misunderstood they were cave certified; apparently just certified enough to do TRIMIX training.
This even better serves the example. So 2 experienced divers that were not cave certified but felt entitled to dive the Nest because their instructor had taken them there to do TRIMIX training. When I did TRIMIX training, we did not go to the Nest; we went to 40 fathom and the ocean...I was cave certified at the time.
Bill died from DCS. I taught him trimix back in 1997 and one of his dives for the class was in the nest, I was saddened to hear of his passing. We also used 40 fathom and pompano for his dives.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwinter
Yeah...I'm not omniscient and as such don't know a single thing about him/her. Therefore, not knowing a single thing about Jitkas background, I don't know whether I should respect or laugh at Jitka.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Pickel
You get the reason for the question now?
I somewhat understand you question. However, the way I read your message came off a bit "holier than thou". Jitka (along with her husband Jakub -- Golem Gear) has been diving the deep caves in our area (Nest, Nursery Sink, Beacon Woods, etc) for over a decade. She has been on numerous REAL expeditions to Mexico and was on the USS Monitor recovery teams. She has also down deep ocean research for FWC and NOAA. Oh yeah, she was a marine biologist for FMRI (seagrasses).Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
Sometimes a simple PM to the person makes a bit more sense that seemingly trying to call someone out on here.
FULL DISCLOSURE: Jitka is a friend. I started diving with her over a decade ago. AWESOME person!
You mean like you did with me saying "you're seriously asking that"
No worries. With less than 2 dozen posts you can see how we'd want to know who's talking. And with so few posts who's to say she'd ever log back in to read a pm.
EXACTLY...And I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27