I assume the "Full Cave" requirement is still in place... in which case this poll did not directly address this option. Full Cave exceeds the requirement on 46% of the votes.
I assume the "Full Cave" requirement is still in place... in which case this poll did not directly address this option. Full Cave exceeds the requirement on 46% of the votes.
Its not addressed in either the poll or the OP, but fno mentioned (full)Cave certification later on in the thread... http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...l=1#post170827Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
I would assume that the Cave certification is reqiured, as its not a partial certification step like Intro or Apprentice.
Please explain how I am only less than 1% when you clearly stated, "piss on the other 90%." So you repersent 90% and I only 1%?Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
Sorry SuPrBuGmAn but we were talking about the polls where prior experience was one of the options. OBTW, welcome back I truly learn a lot from your postings.
We're not going to have an "Occupy Cow" are we? :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
No...I really hope not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Line Squirrel
Thats easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
90% of the people in the poll wanted, at a minimum, someone with prior experience in order to dive at Cow. The new standards don't account for previous experience, we're all assuming you just have to be a Cave diver.
I'm less than %1 of that %90. You are less than %1 of the %10 that seems to think its perfectly fine to dive Cow without any previous experience.
Clear enough?
I am too, one of us just comprehends the numbers a little better than the other ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
Thanks though, happy to be back!
No! OK go back and read again what I wrote. I AM a diver with prior experience (several times) of diving there. I AM a team menber of a team that has an Ab Davis member with us. I never said or implied that anyone should dive it without having dove it before or having an Ab Davis member within the dive team or in my case both.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
How did you vote?Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
It really comes down to if you voted "no prior experience", or anything else...
If you voted anything else, you're part of the %90 and pretty much got pissed on by the decision to open up Cow to pretty much just about anyone.
Conservation be damned, open the flood gates.
If you voted, "no prior experience", you're part of the chosen %10 who apparently have more weight with the CDS organization than the great majority otherwise. This in no part has anything to do with your experience. It has everything to do with how much experience you think should be required to dive Cow.
Was this poll an official vote on a Nss-CDS issue?
A decision like opening up cow to full cave divers is something that Is really decided at a bod meeting not an unofficial poll on a web forum. CDF is not an extension of the CDS and you can't really feel betrayed by the bod if your opinion on this wasn't officially taken into account.
You gotta go to the official meetings an voice your opinions.
That happens only 4 times a year, at one location. There is no way to join in via phone, computer, skype, or carrier pigeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by ffdiver5597
Makes it kinda difficult to have your voice heard doesn't it?
Not really, you get 4 chances a year.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, I'm not a CDS member yet. And I have nothing against you, I actually enjoy reading your post even if I don't agree.
Having said that though, again you are voicing your opinion on an Internet forum that shouldn't have influence over the CDS. It's nice to have hypothetical conversations and read the forums but Realisticly I wouldn't get mad if my opinion wasn't considered on a big matter.
4 chances to be at a specific location at a specific time. Thats difficult considering this is a national organization with international membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by ffdiver5597
I'm not mad. It really is just me voicing my opinion :) I know this is a hypothetical thread, but it was created by one of the BOD, so atleast one person seemed to be curious about the overall majorities thoughts on the matter. That doesn't mean he pushed for the majority side(although I'm guessing he did), and it doesn't mean that more of the BOD over-ruled him for God knows what reason. There's another of the BOD that is a regular here at CDF and is very active, including in this thread. Then atleast one more of the BOD who has an account, but almost certainly doesn't check the forums regularly enough. So while unofficial, it was surely noticed by atleast 2 of the BODs who are certainly capable of relaying any information found here to the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by ffdiver5597
I'd like to hear how the change came about, but I know better than to hold my breath on the matter :P
The reason had noting to do with the poll. The vote was based on liability.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
Mat,
You can breathe now :)
maybe it was more important what people felt and what they thought than a limited choice which doesn't mean a lot. Why would the CDS base their decision on a wild internet poll with limited choices and where people can vote that do not even dive, nor being a member or maybe vote several times under different names or whatever.
From what I understand this was never meant to be an official vote on this subject, so why do people complain now that the decision made is different from what the poll says?
Out of curiosity, what was the overall feeling on why the abe davis award should not be required?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
My feeling on this whole thing is that, the BOD is made up of experienced divers, most of them instructors at one time. If for whatever reason they feel that 100 dives doesn't need to be required then I trust their judgement.
So does that mean that the other '100 cave dive' sites will be open to all cave divers due to liability? I'm not following the logic (I'm sure there is some logic...)
Well, according to FW, it was all about liability...
If the Abe Davis requirement was put into place for conservation reasons, I guess liability takes presedence over conservation.
I know liability is a big concern, but I'm not sure if the message that conservation takes a back seat to it is an overall good thing...
When I have a question I call a BOD member. I dont go immediately on a public forum and say I dont have the information and never will.
Not every international organization makes their BOD meetings available via skype or video phone. Nor do they have meetings that every member can get to. This organization is being singled out for things you would like to see changed, but these arent transgressions against mankind, nor are they an unusual way of doing business. I dont believe the NSS does or NACD does, nor the NFSA. I think they all do good work. I dont always agree with all of these organizations but I belong to them because of the things I do agree with.
You belong to the NSS even if you arent a dry caver for the same reason you join the boyscouts in order to be a tiger cub or weeblo(who then pay additional dues). BTW you dont go to their BOD meetings either.
You volunteer to better the organization, not because they will give you something for free if you do. I personally did not join the CDS, NACD nor the NFSA for the t-shirt.
If I have a question, I call a BOD member, if the answer is not clear, I call a second BOD member. I dont go on a public forum and announce I will never get an answer.
I have my own opinions on how the organization works and on things they do and dont do. I often dont agree with something that is said or done. I write letters to the BOD to get my opinion on these things considered. ( I believe the secretary reads mail at the meetings and/forwards things to the members.) I make phone calls to get information.
If you dont agree with something. Say so. Dont trash an organization nor its members just because you do. If you want something changed, be proactive in changing it. Dont just dissagree; offer a solution and then offer to be part of the solution.
Keep in mind we dont always get our way. No matter how much we hold our breath and stamp our feet.
And when they do something good. I do mention that.
Do what you gotta do Cheryl. You speak to the BOD by phone or email.
I choose to get online and voice my opinion. I still have the freedom to do that. We have active BOD members on this forum, and I've been told that what gets said, is heard, regardless of whether or not this is an official place for discussing the CDS or not.
I'm not asking for any free T-shirts, or anything else.
If I'm just spouting crap off that doesn't make any sense, its not going to hurt anyone but myself. If it hits home, then maybe what I have to say has some merit.
Matt is on the money. Just ask the Susan B Koman foundation what happens when you ignore or underestimate the power of the internet in any community.
NSS-CDS may only have 4 meetings per year with no means for remote access, but they'd be well served in the big picture to develop that capability. The only valid argument for not doing it in this day in age tends to be more closely related to a desire to maintain the status quo than to any technology challenges. Or perhaps it just makes it that much harder for non local zip code and international members to run for and be elected to BOD positions.
Personally, I think not imposing a "must dive upstream Cow the first time with someone with previous upstream Cow experience" and an Abe Davis requirement is a bit short sighted. Cow is seeing more traffic and more damage, and upping the experience level certainly couldn't hurt.
I don't understand the liability issue at all - someone is going to have to explain to me why imposing a greater experience level increases liability.
I have to say, my NSS-CDS membership is due for renewal and the meeting issues and BOD decision on Cow does give me pause on whether I want to continue to support the NSS-CDS with my annual dues.
OK, gang. I have been offline for a bit and lazy with the Management Plan and notifications. The real reason that the policy for Cow was changed at the meeting is that it is not in agreement with the activities taking place for the last two or three years since the policy was changed by me and my commitee to require the Abe Davis. Bear in mind that I am the lazy, incompetent, and careless BoD member that let all this happen for a long time. Since Cathy has been aware of the rule change, I instructed her to agnore the Abe Davis requirement till the Board could sort out "my" mistake. Whether or not the BoD votes again at a later time to require additional experience, I can not answer that. Also note that the poll I initiated was not an official NSS-CDS vote, inquiry, investigation. It was me wanting to know which way the wind blows. As a BoD member, I (we) are often accused of making policy without consulting the membership. I prefer not to do that and the poll here was the most expedient way to get a feel for what to do. Is it accurate, reflect only CDS members opinions, not really..... But it is a means to gauge the direction of the wind, so to speak. I, personally would like to see an Abe Davis requirement to dive at Cow. It has seen way too much damage since the NSS-CDs bought the place. However, I am only one voice of seven on the BoD. As Cheryl stated very well, if you want the Board to consider your opinion a phone call or an email is the best way to make that happen. I do come to CDF often, but normally not to discuss the CDS....
Best Regards to All, Frank Ohidy, Program Director, NSS-CDS.
As a cds member, I agree. From p1800' to the Cow at EOL look beat to hell and there are multiple glory markers along it. These kind of people don't need to be diving it. Abe req wont keep them all out and will keep out a lot that aren't like that but hopefully more good than bad will occur by the change.Quote:
Originally Posted by fno
I am amazed about all the talk about "faking" log books. Really? You're only fooling yourself. IMO a person without intregrity isn't worth a damn.
Ps - Keep the requirements as they are (or were); hopefully that will ensure a basic level of compentency to protect the system.
I'd thought about making a site to track cave damage...but then realized it'd just make me depressed, provide ammo for cave diving haters and squash my enjoyment. Still would be interesting to track over time and a good resource to log acts of vandalism.
Me, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
This is a legitimate question, given the new importance of percieved(?) reduction of liability within the CDS.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
I am not a board member, but I suspect the liability issue is something along the lines that if you say only X experience level can dive there and somehow a person without that level of experience does get in, then the liability insurance is not valid should something happen. That is, the insurance covers ONLY the required experience level. The CDS would be at fault for allowing lower experience divers into the system, not the insurance company, and thus the CDS would be solely liable. The CDS could always argue that the lower experience diver should not have been in there, they could argue that they've taken all reasonable actions to prevent access to those divers, etc., but that takes a lawyer, courts, etc., and the CDS would be stuck with the bill for all that and may or may not win. Better to have insurance for all.
So you get insurance to cover liability on anyone anytime who's in there and be much safer in the event of a law-suit than insurance that covers only in the event of X experience level. Twisted logic, but that's why they call it insurance. If I'm correct about this, then I do not understand why the insurance would necessarily be tied to access rules. then again, I don't understand insurance in general.
I would be in favor of limiting the number of divers per year, or per month or whatever, regardless of experience level, which I also think should require abe davis, and members of NSS/CDS only, no friends of members, all divers must be members. It's our cave, paid for with our money, and our money is paying for the insurance too. You want to dive it, get the training and experience, and become a member. Keep it in the family and you'll see conservation. By the way, I'd like to see deer-cams installed too, motion-detection picture taking, so we know who's there when.
skip
So then take it all the way to the "obviously ridiculous" level just to play devil’s advocate...why restrict access to full cave, why not O/W and let each individual decide if their skill set is adequate?
Well then you might as well not have any acces restrictions at all, if you're going with that line of thinking.
That was my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
Is it though? Its apparent that even non-diving locals use Cow as a swimming hole(or worse) despite the best efforts to keep them out with additional fences, gates, signage, ect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Line Squirrel
As nss-cds members couldn't we ask for changes to the access policy be revised to include all divers must be 1. only nsscds members 2. only those with abe davis awards and ask the bod/membership to vote on it?
Is this type of thing something only the bod would vote on or the membership in general?
You know Mat, at first I was not going to reply but hell I simply could not help myself. I voted that you should have prior experience. I truly feel no one should dive here without someone to show you the system and how to dive it. I could have voted to have an Abe Davis awarded diver on the team. Both I already have. Now the sad part is that you thinking that when I posted that you no longer have to have an Abe Davis to dive Cow you took it as me saying I voted for no experience required or other. And as far as stating, "Conservation be dammed, open the flood gates" is just pure BS. Heck even your bubbles leave an impact on the cave. So maybe rebreather only? The only way to properly apply conservation is to put a gate over it and allow no one to enter the cave...ever. Much like that cave in Texas if I remember correctly.
I've read through the bylaws and saw nothing about how voting takes place (other than voting for BoD members). however, there is stuff about how a petition signed by 10% of the membership requires the BoD to act on the petition within 45 days of receiving it. Whether the "act on" part means they vote or put it to membership vote is not stated. I suppose if the petition included something about membership voting, then that's how it would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
another way would be to draft a proposal and submit it in writing to the BoD to be placed on the agenda of the next meeting. members can show up and be heard, but a written proposal is preferred prior to the meeting. If a group of members showed up all wanting the same changes, I'm sure the BoD would listen, discuss, and decide the best course of action to take.
skip
I wonder why I would think that?Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
Could it be nonsensicle posts like this are hard to comprehend?Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
The previous Abe Davis rule was put into place for conservation reasons, its already apparent that the cave is showing signs of bad diving(and not from bubbles). Get your head out of the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
... and the cave in TX, with the grate, was dove an awefull lot last month apparently.
I have always enjoyed your pictures from the surface, explanation of removing old line and placing new line as well as other advice but now you are being a PITA. Considering that you do not know me I would guess 1) your desire to take things to the worst case situation or 2) all divers have not acquired the great diving ability that you have achieved. Where did you start and what caves did you dive, during your first 100 dives, to gain your great superiority? Sounds like my past days of surfing, “My waves, My beach, Go home, Locals only.”Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
The NSS CDS owns a handful of sites. ALL the rest are not. Is it too much to ask that the very few the NSS-CDS owns (3 or 4?) be limited to people with experience for the sake of conservation? Its not about who lives where, its about keeping a very small number of sites pristine so that others can enjoy them when the time comes.
As a clarification of my previous statement, another post.... The percieved liability only comes from the fact that the CDS is currently for the last two years operating Cow with no requirement for proof of 100 cave dives at the Dive Outpost. This is considered in legal terms as being inconsistent with the Management Plan and would put the CDS in a court of law as acting inconstently and not following the plan as written. Not advisable is what the lawyers tell us. Now to changing the plan, please direct all requests for change to me along with your NSS-CDS name and number. I will compile them before the next BoD meeting along with a written request to have an agenda item added in. This has been done before and worked out just fine. If the board is aware of what even appears to be a majority of membership wanting a change and that change is consistent with the Constitution and By-Laws at the time, then it gets voted on and usually done. There is nothing complicated or secrective about this process and it is far more efficient than bitching about issues on CDF. As always, my phone is almost always on and I am available to discuss any aspect NSS-CDS with other members.
Best regards, Frank Ohidy, Program Director, NSS-CDS
Read into things too much?Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
So in essence, all Kathy or Dive Outpost staff would have to do is verify that a diver has 100 logged dives by looking at the log, noting an Abe Davis or Wakulla Bronze sticker on the cave card, or by just knowing the diver personally, and knowing he or she has 100 post full cave dives? It would add a minute or two to the check in process at most. (And Kathy or her staff could quickly create a list of diver's who've previously documented their eligibility to dive there, making it a very quick process even if the diver does not have documentation on his person.)Quote:
Originally Posted by fno
So what's the problem? Post the requirements at DO and divers either show proof to meet the requirements or they don't get the key.
makes perfect sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
and if anything happens to someone or someone gets a key or say he dives downstream cow, some lawyer would find a way to make the property manager liable. Would anybody volunteer to take extra work for free or whatever the deal is and have the slightest change to be liable for a hefty lawsuit?
There would still the issue of negligence on the part of the diver who jumped the fence, etc to enter without proper permission.Quote:
Originally Posted by huxley
An attorney will give you the safest, most conservative advice, which is not to say it's the only defensible course of action.
All of that said... Bottom line is, right or wrong, liable or not, you still might find yourself having to defend yourself in court and that costs both time and $$$$$
Li and I were in there today and it seems that there is more wear and tear than before. Not vandalism but rather uninformed dive teams not using either the ski rope or the not using the existing pull and glide rock points versus making new ones.
I for one believe Abe Davis should be a requirement.
Tony Flaris
You sound like an attorney, at least one who only looks at a very narrow, risk averse approach to avoiding any and all lawsuits of their client. So WTF, lets just go to the logical extreme and sell off Cow so that neither NSS-CDS, Dive Outpost nor any other party is liable for someone else's stupidity in illegally trespassing and then dying in Cow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Line Squirrel
Forgetting of course, that the above illegal trespass would have to happen, with a resulting fatality, with a family that hires an attorney who actually pursues the issue and does not have it thrown out of court before the legal costs to defend against the BS lawsuit amount to anything. As for DO's liability, they are only on the hook if they hand out the key to someone not on the approved list or not presenting proper documentation.
In contrast to that, the harm of a policy of allowing less than Abe/less than escorted by people with previous upstream cow experience is almost certainly more traffic by less experienced divers resulting in more damage.
The point being if you ask an attorney for the safest approach that's exactly what you will get - advice along the lines of stay home, don't get out of bed and keep the phone in your hand with your finger on the speed dial 911 button.
If the BOD or anyone else actually wants to accomplish something, then they need to tell their lawyer what they want to do and then ask the attorney how to accomplish that with minimal risk. In this case that would produce answers of what procedures and documentation to use to keep DO and NSS-CDS out of trouble.