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I think that kind of $ we need are from the travel portion of diving and any hard estimates that you have on that would be helpful, maybe you go back through your Log Book and put together some numbers. We should also reach out to anyone who is not local and ask that they do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by DogHouseDiver
When I mailed the gov officials on this subject I included actual figures from 5 international customers. At an average of $8k each on training and equipment costs (helps when one buys a full ccr...) they are spending a lot of money on just diving. not including hotel and food and travel. T
This is 99% of what I got out of the meeting as well. A large percentage against us was over the Manatee thing, while it makes no sense, rather than arguing with them they can be completely put at ease if we agree to no diving during Manatee season, yes I know that's prime diving season too, but I think after the first year if we show ourselves to be responsible adults and that we want do anything to "stress" the Manatees, it would be relaxed the next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhauburn
The disturbing the bone and graffiti can be disarmed by having guided dives, no I don't want that either, but I think it's important to get our foot into the door and if one year of guided dives is what it takes, so be it.
Bottom line almost everything brought up against us, can be disarmed and would show us to be responsible adults, I do NOT think threatening them with lawsuits is a way to get what we want, I know that if threatened, I am not likely to give in and don't think most are.
The biggest actual group against us and the only one that can't be dealt with logically, comes from our fellow divers. I'm a beginning cave diver, don't have any "political" connections and don't know the issues, but it's clear to me that there exists this elitist group that believes only they should be allowed in there and want to keep "us" out.
I'm asking everyone to please read this: http://wakullasprings.org/pdf/Wakull...uly%202011.pdf
We have witness testimony that the boats hit manatee all the time, there are photos in this link that show the boats are outfitted with prop protectors. This link also shows divers and manatee interacting with one another and has the phrase- "WKPP divers enjoy the company of manatees during their dives".
I wish we could get the Friends of Wakulla Springs to understand that cave divers are part of the solution not the problem. Wes was on the Florida Springs Task Force and made a great documentary to show how the springs need protecting. We already have a North Florida Springs Alliance that has done a lot to inform people of the importance in protecting our springs and educating people about the springs. Ground water pollution entering the springs and reduced static pressure from water usage are the real issues that need to be tackled. Allying cave divers, the Friends of Wakulla, the North Florida Springs Alliance, and the Wakulla Dive Club would give a much larger voice for all of us.
Unfortunately a very small group of divers has convinced the Friends that the majority of cave divers are the enemy and will reek havoc if allowed to dive in Wakulla Springs and County. As has been their pattern for far too many years they promote themselves with efforts to undermine others. Petty and counterproductive with only their own short sited interests considered. The result is divided energies, time, and resources that would be considerably more productive combined.
I am sure that this idea will not give me any popularity or friends, but it is just an idea, so don't go off on me too badly.
Remember the old saying "You can catch more flys with honey than with vinegar", well it might work to our advantage to actually ask the opposing parties a simple question to get in a position with them to negotiate. Just ask them what they think would be an acceptable means of allowing divers into the site. This would give them a chance to offer their suggestions as to a proper set of rules or controls for the site.
Just an idea..........
Good idea Don. Presently the response is: Option one, join the WKPP, get GUE trained, then be a tank grunt for many years to possibly have a chance at having at fun diving. Second option, write a proposal to get a permit that in some way will show how the WKPP can't take care of the diving part of the scientific work so you might get the chance to dive it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsix36
I don't think that would work. From what I saw at the meeting the opposition is very opposed to opening Wakulla and is not willing to negotiate at all. To many of them there is no acceptable means. I think the best way is to talk with the authorities and work with them on a solution that will please most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsix36
I think it depends on who you mean the opposition is. I was talking to the tall guy who is a city councilman (he stood up and spoke that he was in favor of us diving towards the end of the meeting) who stated to me that there were more people that really had no idea what diving is, than there were against it, their main opposition was that they had been told that diving would be bad for Wakulla, and it was divers that had told them that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
I think that Don has an excellent point with the honey and vinegar comment.
Bottom line, we aren't vandals or thieves and won't be chasing Manatee's with scooters, or filling the parking lot with loud music etc. Once the Friends of Wakulla get to know us, we help on some of their projects, they will wonder how they got along without us.
(If we do this right anyway)
On edit:
My point is, do what is necessary to get in there, accept restrictions with the idea that if we are the good guy's we say we are, then we will become friends with our opposition and they will lobby for us to relax any restrictions. I've seen it before, BIG argument that motorcycle road racing was just WAY too noisy where I used to race in my younger days, we agreed easily to no engine running for any reason until after Church was over, soon some of the congregation would come out after Church and watch us race, and some of the Racers even attend services. Ended up I'm sure that the little local Church would have fought against closing the track, whereas they had been trying to get it closed. You can completely disarm an Enemy by becoming their friend.
A life lesson in that statement. it would be nice across cave agencies as well. Many friends stated not that they were against diving per se but rather "unrestricted" access...that seems to imply a negotiation of a satisfactory set of restrictions that provides recreation and sustains the resource.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
What if some of the cave divers supporting the opening of the spring joined the Friends of Wakulla and helped them on some projects? It might give us an open ear to whisper in.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
If we joined in great enough numbers, we could change the leadership. Democracy... What a concept.
I'm pretty sure the NACD, NSS, and IANTD have more cave diving members than Friends of Wakulla. That would be funny if we all joined.
http://wakullasprings.org/membership.html
Actually, not to be funny, but as has been mentioned, we have a lot of the same interests. In fact, the NFSA Interpretive Trail could be a great project, I would be willing to donate to if done in Wakulla. Didnt look like thy have done anythying other than train some guides. A self led, documented Trail could be a great addition. If enough that lived close, or could donate funds got involved, we might make very good "Friends of Wakulla".
Anyone think its a bad idea to join?
You guys are going to get me excited and I'm going to have to move there.
I know the Friends of Wakulla were supposedly a pretty big factor in getting things together for the Sally Ward bridge(bridge over the run from Sally Ward) on the little 6 mile hikey/bikey trail they have at the park.
I agree with this. Showing them what we are about is the way to do it. But just asking them what would be acceptable isn't going to change much with many of the opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Already been a member for a few years. Haven't seen many projects in that time. But with enough cave divers joining maybe we can get some new projects going. Even with the average age of a cave diver being in the 40s-50s, we're still much younger than the majority of Friends I saw at the meeting and could easily handle projects that require hands on muscle. This is in no way intended to put down any of the Friends members, but it did look like the average age was in the 70s-80s and I wasn't seeing many of them capable of hauling steel cylinders around. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by graepaep
I'll help, but I'm not much of an organizer type, but I do good grunt work :)
The Friends of Wakulla do some great things,and I highly encourage membership and participation in this organization.Quote:
Originally Posted by graepaep
I was a member and have rejoined as of a couple of weeks ago. BillQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Can we post the membership application process here?
You could also join online and pay via PayPal. I did a google search for Friends of Wakulla and found it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
I'm joining.
---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.323348,-81.397436
What about all of those RV sites they're considering??? Not good!Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthWoodsDiver
I just went to the Virginia Outdoors Plan 5 year review last night as they plan the next revision. Gotta say, it was a kumbayah kinda meeting. The hikers, equestrians, and mountain bikers all said, "More trails for everyone." It was great.
We even talked about having a "get your horse accustomed to bikes in a safe setting" mixer. Many horses are fine with bikes, but not all.
So it *is* possible for people to work together and not fight. I like you guys' ideas about joining the Friends of Wakulla.
Agree, it might be possible to democratically influence outcomes. I once organized a minor coup art my community college, getting a few pilots on the student council and influencing the outcomes of general funds surplus spending to include the painting and refurbishing of three college aviation aircraft. However, being out of state I don't want to be seen as an outsider or puppetmaster. I too care about preservation of Wakulla Springs, and if others in Wakulla County Dive Club or the cave diving agencies see value to joining our fellow conservationists and slowly winning their hearts and minds, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and join the Friends group, but it should be a concerned effort of scores of us.... Its also hard for me to participate from four or five hours away....
I am willing to join this group and financially support them with membership dues if we as a cave diving community think that we can join them and influence rather than beat them..... But I want there and don't know the tone, as RN said, they may never budge and working with park decision makers might be the best avenue. I just have a feeling that if they knew how hard we work to keep places clean and pristene, they may relax.... But they have been told a slanted view by wkpp. We get out there, chainsaw down trees on trails, buikd steps to stop erosion, and I personally walk the road at Harvey's every time and pick up trash, and do so underwater and at other sites above water.
If there is value in joining and we do it as clubs and agencies and participating individuals, I'll do it..... If we do it large enough to make a voting impact.
Just reminds me, I owe my WCDC dues, see you guys at the meeting, bring me the new shirt, size XL.
When I was in undergraduate school the Student Council consisted of fifteen members elected every year. Very few students cared about voting, so the winners only got about fifty votes apiece.Quote:
Originally Posted by DogHouseDiver
One year we quietly had fifteen music majors on the ballot, and virtually every music major went and voted. That year, EVERY member of Student Council was a music major! The Orchestra trip to South Carolina and the Wind Ensemble trip to Biloxi and New Orleans that year sure were fun!
Oh lord, you were in the band?
"one time in band camp".... Sludge, that explains alot.
Please don't hold up systems that operate under a guide system as an example of how Wakulla should be run. The *last* thing we want is another guided system. We'd be better off keeping it closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A.
Now a policy like the one at Emerald is one that I could get behind. Personally, I think that *if* Wakulla is opened, we can expect a management plan that is at least as stringent as the one at Emerald.
Brian
All I can say is WOW. You must be a really bad bunch of people to warrant such an attack.
I say we all join their organization and vote these people out.
My thoughts exactly.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpiov
WOW!!!
Agree and will do.it if we get enough people to commit. Does anyone have their Letterman Style top ten reasons recreational diving sucks attachment? Can we submit a rebuttal statement debunking their myths?
"defending the Park against clearly non-conforming and degrading intrusions"Quote:
Originally Posted by dgschott
Non-conforming? Degrading? This would be a great joke about the nature of cave divers if this wasn't so seriously disgusting. These people are seriously in need of replacement.
Anyone know when their next BOD election is?
Voting is staggered so that the board is not all up for vote at the same time (never more than half of the board up for vote at any one time). Terms are two years elected at the annual meeting.
http://www.wakullasprings.org/pdf/Friends-By-Laws.pdf
A coup would take time, maybe a year or two, with sleeper cell board members.....Kidding....Sorta.
All I get is the letter, can someone cut-n-paste the ten reasons? I assume that is what is inflammatory
I wasn't sent the 10 reasons, but can only imagine. In a few very short emails with Ron Piasecki, he sent me the attached letter from Tod Kincaid (Attachment 5787), 'who is both a diver and hydrogeologist', stating I should read his letter carefully because 'He says divers are welcome to join WKPP for research diving or form their own research group and get a special research permit.'.
Well where do I send my application? LOL...Quote:
Originally Posted by dgschott
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
By joining the WKPP they mean so that you can be a tank ##### for a year, then spend a year taking stage bottles to the first drop point, then a year later you get to scooter one drop point further, then a year later you can purchase an RB80 so you can keep being a tank #####.
No diving just because you want to enjoy the scenery ever happens.
This letter has been out there for a while. I received a copy of it before the meeting in January. Here are the 10 reasons with the rebuttal I sent to Sec. Vinyard and other board members.
Rebuttal of the
10 Reasons Recreational Diving at Wakulla Springs is a Really Bad Idea
1. Disruption of Tour Boat activity, which is the largest generator of revenue, over one-half million dollars per year, for the Park:
a. Recreational diving could actually reduce park revenue since there is no dive fee and diving will likely interfere with tour boats and swimming.
Diving is unlikely to interfere with any of the current activities at the park. At this time diving and swimming are allowed at Manatee, Madison, and Peacock Springs State Parks, as well as at Jackson Blue Recreational Area. Diving and swimming are also both allowed at St. Andrews State Park. None of these parks have suffered a reduction in park revenue. Diving used to be restricted during swimming hours at Jackson Blue Recreational Area up until three years ago. Lifting the restriction has not had a negative effect on revenue for the park. If there is a concern about divers entering the area where boats are located, a line can be located where divers can ascend and descend. This will keep them out of boating and swimming areas.
b. FS 327.331(4) provides that people must make a reasonable effort to stay 100 feet away from divers down flag.
True.
c. Glass bottom boats could not operate at all.
Not true. Boats go through the St. Andrews pass quite regularly even with five or more dive flags along the jetties. Diving activities have not closed the pass once.
d. River boat tours could not go over, or even near, the spring head.
Not true. As stated above an entry/exit point could easily be set up in the basin that would have the least amount of interference with current boating activities at Wakulla Spring.
e. No other state park that allows spring diving has motorized boats when divers are present.
While Jackson Blue Recreational Area is not a state run park, it is a
state owned park. Motorized boats are allowed 24 hours a day as well
as diving. Also, while not a spring, St. Andrews State Park runs a marina, boat launch, and encompasses a pass through from St. Andrews Bay to the gulf. Diving is permitted in the pass.
2. More appropriate diving sites already exist at Wakulla Springs State Park:
a. Emerald, Clearcut and Cherokee Sinks allow cave diving.
What makes those dive sites more appropriate? Also, Cherokee sink was never intended for cave diving, but rather for open water diving, and it is presently closed due to inadequate facilities.
b. The Park made concessions already to allow divers access to caves.
And diving has been taking place at these locations without any negative impact.
c. After opening these sites, at divers’ requests, divers rarely use them.
Clearcut was only recently opened to diving. The other systems are accessed when conditions allow for diving. These access points are deep systems, as is Wakulla Spring, and the number of divers that are trained and qualified to dive these sites is not very large. There are also a couple of things that have hampered diving at Emerald. The fact that part the year the system does not have visibility appropriate for conducting safe dives and the reservation system is very difficult requiring advance planning and faxing reservation forms. While divers may attempt to plan dives there, conditions can change in a matter of days. The other thing is with only a couple sites open there isn't as much incentive to get that many visitors. If more sites were open this would be an encouragement to get people to visit and in turn increase revenue to the area.
3. Negative impact to the environment wherever the divers access the springs:
a. Destruction of wetlands at proposed entry site.
Divers have been accessing springs throughout North Florida, Mexico, the Bahamas, and elsewhere throughout the world with minimal to no impact on the entry sites. Organizations such as the National Association for Cave Diving (NACD), National Speleological Society – Cave Diving Section (NSS-CDS), North Florida Springs Alliance (NFSA), and Wakulla County Dive Club (WCDC) have donated time, materials, and money to build steps and board walks to minimize and eliminate destruction to these sites. When permit holding divers have a dive weekend, they have large number of people who are surface support, in water support and gas divers, and these people are accessing the same sensitive areas-perhaps 20 people. Diving in Wakulla springs will have a carrying capacity and the number of people who would be in there areas would be 2 or 3 at a time.
b. Study has shown that divers are primary source for introduction of exotic species into springs.
Please site your sources. Actually, the primary source for introduction of exotic species into springs is boaters. There is a plan in place at Ichetucknee Springs State Park that requires gear inspection by the ranger for invasive species. This plan is also in the Emerald plan. A quick scan of the gear at check in can verify invasive species are not present on gear. We also have no documentation of divers bringing an invasive species to any other springs.
4. Introduction of commercialization of recreational activities sets a dangerous precedent that implies private profits over the public good.
Who is trying to introduce commercialization? We simply want to be allowed to dive Wakulla Spring. No one will be reaping any financial benefit from this. The closest thing to commercial diving at Wakulla Spring currently is the WKPP. Our plan does not include any commercialized diving.
5. Inability to protect lives of divers, and no ability to recover dead bodies by local law enforcement:
a. Depth of cave (300 feet) assures that divers may sustain injuries due to inadequate decompression time; some will die.
Eagles' Nest, Diepolder, Indian, Emerald, Lower Orange Grove and Peacock III (both located in Wes Skiles Peacock Springs State Park, Harvey's, and so on, are all in the 150-300' + depth range and none have had a death or injury sustained by a diver that was trained and qualified to be in those systems.
b. It is a logistical nightmare to life-flight someone out of Wakulla Springs State Park.
Diving injuries are usually transported by ground due to the complication altitude can have on a person after diving. Capital Regional Medical Center is the only hospital east of Pensacola and west of Jacksonville that has a hyperbaric chamber that is still open to diver injuries and is close enough to not require life-flight. It would actually be faster to transport by ground.
6. Scuba diving is an un-supervised sport—ask any diver!?
NACD and NSS-CDS have done a great job of "supervising" dives to a certain extent. These agencies and their representatives are the ones that sit on the boards and oversee access to systems like Emerald, Clearcut, Diepolder, Indian, etc., and also advise the state park departments on how to administer the diving programs in place at state parks, such as Manatee, Madison, and Wes Skiles Peacock.
7. Destruction and possible loss of artifacts and inability to investigate criminal activities
a. It is inevitable that artifacts may be stolen, not because divers are “bad” people, but because they’re human.
Conservation is one of the key topics in all cave diving training. Most cave divers will not remove artifacts. And the artifacts in Wakulla are large enough that it would be impossible to remove any of them without being seen. Also, how do we know that past permitted dives haven't taken artifacts? Why place blame on another group? In fact, cave divers have prosecuted someone who performed vandalism under Florida Statute 810.13 and established a fund of $1000 for reward leading to arrest. These artifacts are protected under the cave vandalism law and we work hard to enforce them.
b. Cave walls and other surfaces could be defaced. ( See Jackson Blue Springs at http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...raffitti-in-JB )
The damage in Jackson Blue Spring was done by recreational open water divers. The person who did the damage has been identified. There was also damage done in Cow Spring a few years ago and the cave diving community was able to find out who did it and was involved with the first known prosecution under Florida Statute 810.13 of someone for defacing an underwater cave system. We police our own. Additionally, the places that damage is being pointed out are systems that aren't state parks and they have unrestricted access, unlike state parks that have carrying capacities. So this is an unfair comparison. State parks have carrying capacities that limit number of visitors and there is a system in place called photopoints to measure for cave wear and tear.
8. Interference with ongoing, world-renown research:
a. WKPP is doing research, not recreational diving.
b. WKPP has invested over 4 million dollars in equipment and time.
c. Thousands of dollars of sensitive research equipment stationed within the cave system will be vulnerable to damage.
Cave divers do not touch or interfere with equipment that is currently located in other cave systems. It is unlikely they would interfere with the equipment in Wakulla Spring. When Emerald opened there was a science project at Cheryl that nobody interfered with. There has been an ongoing study at Peacock Springs and a few others that show that cave divers don't interfere with science research. Water quality is the issue and we share that concern.
d. Importance of research cannot be overstated. Agencies that have benefited include FGS, NWFWMD, DEP, USGS. The entire Springs ecosystem and the people of Wakulla and Leon Counties have benefited enormously.
Recreational cave diving in other Florida systems have brought about great benefits to the citizens of Florida in the form of water quality reports, mapping projects, and increased financial income in the form of money spent at local businesses and increased tax revenue.
9. Negative impact on the image of Wakulla Springs as a sanctuary as established by its founder, Ed Ball:
a. Trauma to park visitors when diving accidents will occur.
Diving accidents are not very likely to occur. Based on this argument we should restrict swimming because of the danger of drowning and spinal injury from diving into the water. Visitors should probably also be restricted on hot summer days to prevent people from having heat stroke or heart attacks. Ambulances have responded to Wakulla Springs State Park in the past with minimal to no trauma to park visitors.
b. Negative media coverage of Wakulla Springs when divers get injured or die.
Media coverage doesn't affect the location. It affects the group.
c. Swimming area and potentially the entire Park will be shut down until conclusion of rescue missions, which can take days.
This has not been the case in any of the other systems where fatalities have occurred. Cave divers are quick to respond to incidents and recoveries are done in a timely manner.
10. This extreme-sport of a few cave divers should not disrupt the recreational fun of the over 175,000 people that now enjoy swimming and the riverboat tours each year.
Cave divers have not disrupted the recreational fun of over millions of people that now enjoy swimming and other activities at any of the other springs in Florida, Mexico, or anywhere else. Why would they have a different effect at Wakulla?
Well said.
Excellent response, Rob..
Exactly. That is the type of level headed logicsl responses we need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Torpedo
Original Post Dec 2011.....Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
Yes sir. And my response Feb 2012.Quote:
Originally Posted by tflaris