The "New" Ginnie

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...ain't so new any more.

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Well, my friend, neither are you (or me) Its not the age, its always the mileage that gets you.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...I've just come back from a 5 day trip to Ginnie. It was deeply disappointing.. That's somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 a TON of clay. Unbelievable.

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Not really, just think of how much clay you can force in the space between a set of doubles and the backplate.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...I suppose I'll have to live with the fact that it's now trashed. I am utterly amazed at how quickly this occurred.

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Why, it doesn't take long at all to smash into the wall and ceiling. You can do this a LOT faster than avoiding contact. I try to smack the overhead at least 3 or 4 times per dive.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...fat/big/discombobulated/improperly attired is going to be extremely difficult.

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Now, you are getting personal.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...Rose also pointed out something to me when I was there. It's important to realize that if you DO manage to kill yourself back there, you put others at risk who are going to have to haul your overladen and underskilled (and now stiff and immobile) ass out of there. Please have some consideration for not only your life, but that of the people who have to get your corpse.

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Yes, dead people have lousy bouyancy control. I think that their certifying agency should cancel their card on the spot.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...And more importantly if you haven't found these spots yourself you have no business going back there.

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Well, that didn't keep you out of the main tunnel, and I know you didn't find it.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...There. Now I sound like an old fart also. But I am just astonished at how much a select group of dumbasses have screwed up that cave in 8 short weeks. Well bloody done.

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On behalf of a certified old fart, (and a confessed dumbass) welcome to the club!

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...I've had the pleasure of sharing some data with one of the finest divers I've come across, James Toland.

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Yeah, James is top knotch, but that damn fish hook is just wrong.

Sorry to hear it. Welcome to exploration; this is just one of the many reasons people keep their explorations secret.

Johnny we seem to be disagreeing alot lately; from the Hinkle to EOL was trashed along time ago. It was absolutely disgusting what had been done when Lamar and I swam back to get Mark.

Jerry

andrew, i'm really sorry. i know how you advocated spreading your knowledge. i'm sorry so many folks have showed they're not worthy of such consideration.

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Originally Posted by Jerry

from the Hinkle to EOL was trashed along time ago. It was absolutely disgusting what had been done when Lamar and I swam back to get Mark.

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The floor of the low/narrow passage to the "old terminal room" used to look like it was made of white porcelain turtle shell tiles (mid/late 90s). A few years later it was trashed - there was no sign the tiles ever existed. The floor since then has been ground up white rock fragments among rubble. :(

I've heard people say that in the rush to the "new section" people have been driving their scooters thru there and screwing it up worse. I can only imagine what "worse" is.

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Originally Posted by Gary

I've heard people say that in the rush to the "new section" people have been driving their scooters thru there and screwing it up worse. I can only imagine what "worse" is.

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Why are you claiming to relay on hearsay? You posted on TDS a while ago about how you trashed it yourself, so badly that you reduced the vis to the point that it took you twice as long to swim out as in.

http://thedecostop.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=227

Come on, dude, silting up a passage and trashing it aren't the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Come on, dude, silting up a passage and trashing it aren't the same thing.

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Certainly not. Tough admittedly the slit wasn't obvious until I turned after my short penetration of the area. Maneuvering out carefully did require additional time and effort. My examination included maybe only the first 200' from the terminal room split and turning long before the first restriction. It was not meant as a full dive of the area - just a short peek while passing by elsewhere. The silt raised didn't even effect visibility once leaving the passage (as was said the last two times Andrew tried to raise a stink about it).

To clarify: I haven't been back there since Andrew made his survey announcement that brought on the more recent rush of "adventurers". Up until then additional interest in the "new section" seemed to have been fortunately very little. So you can be assured that despite any silt I may raised before then the new damage in that passage leading there and the "tons" of clay damage at the restriction does not include any of my own regardless of how Andrew may attempt to distort anything I might write). :roll:

Yes, I was improperly equipped to examine even that much of that cave passage and due to the silt I should have turned it there - even if I hadn't been turning already since it wasn't part of my dive plan. Just an short examination of the diver's death area with extra time and gas. And "no" the cave was not damaged in my passage nor did I press on once I determined I was raising some silt.


The silt did however, provide me a theory that the diver who died may not have violated proper gas reserves (as was assumed in the accident report article) but rather the silt cloud that accompanied his exit slowed him enough to deplete his entire reserve. We know the silt his raised drove other divers out of the system. It likely prevented him from noticing the unrecoverable state of his flooded and dropped rebreather and he may not have even been aware of how dangerously low his reserves were when he chose to expend the last of it recovering the flooded rebreather rather then swimming another 50' to a nearby stage bottle.

In any case this is already way off topic.


Unfortunately, you can't unspill spilt milk. The back of the cave is well advertised now and Andrew is seemingly regretful for his part in the increased interest and resultant damage (and hopefully no additional deaths).

And in a few years we can probably all look forward to Andrew's vehement warnings to the next generation of divers convinced that posting directions and video maps to as yet undamaged areas of the cave is the best thing in the world for the sport of cave diving. Of course a few of those won't listen and will do it anyway - cursing him for his cautions and perpetuating the cycle.

It's disappointing to me that the general cave diving population can't be trusted with exploration information like this. Not just anyone can even get back to the "new" section of Ginnie so it's sad that those with greater skill can't be trusted to choose to stop before they tear up the cave.

well, that's true. this can't be blamed on classes or newbies...

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...ain't so new any more.
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It's really saddening. Within two dives back there, I had completely flipped sides and was with all those asking me not to publish anything on what lies beyond there.
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I suppose I'll have to live with the fact that it's now trashed. I am utterly amazed at how quickly this occurred.
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There. Now I sound like an old fart also. But I am just astonished at how much a select group of dumbasses have screwed up that cave in 8 short weeks. Well bloody done.
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I have no more intention of ever putting a map into the public. ...

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Are you still going to write an article.....? I would encourage it, devote an entire section to conservation.... for me, its not so much about where exactly your going... I'm not an explorer, I don't have a burning desire to see every last inch of line, or squeeze into every last crevasse, heck I've never been near the Hinkle. Cave diving is a bit like taking a challenging hike, it gets me away from my troubles and lets me experience nature with some friends. So, without painting a picture on a map, there's still quite a bit of content you could contribute to one of the journals... How you went about planning, preparing and execution of the dives and your experiences before, during, and now after, and what lies ahead... Its not so much about arriving..., but the journey...

Cuz if I see one more historical retrospective, I'll blow my brains out...

-Tim