For what it's worth-!

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Jenny was sealed off for one reason. Lawsuits.

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Let's not forget that what John said is the bottom line. If someone gets past the grate, and the insurance company finds out, GSO looses their insurance, and *WE* loose access to the entrance, no matter who owns the cave itself.

As it has been pointed out, they can't block the river entrance, but they can put a fence up across the run, keeping us out of the Eye. Besides Jason, who here wants to own/rent a boat, or canoe, and add the time involved with transporting yourself and gear from a remote dock? Nevermind what would happen to your vehicle while you were gone.

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

The cave goes under their land and the grate is attached to their rocks.

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By the same logic, since they own the land on both sides of the river, they can put up a fence blocking boat traffic. The river goes through their land and the fence would be attached to their dirt so it would be legal, right?

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Originally Posted by Marchand

By the same logic, since they own the land on both sides of the river, they can put up a fence blocking boat traffic. The river goes through their land and the fence would be attached to their dirt so it would be legal, right?

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No, because the river is a navigable waterway, the underground river is not.

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Originally Posted by Marchand

By the same logic, since they own the land on both sides of the river, they can put up a fence blocking boat traffic. The river goes through their land and the fence would be attached to their dirt so it would be legal, right?

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No, That's not right. There is a law against blocking spring runs or rivers. They tried that at Blue springs a few years ago and it didn't fly. You can't block navigable water ways or impede the flow of a spring. They would have to pull a permit just to put a bridge over the water. Madison got away with the partial damning of that spring because it was done before the law change.

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Originally Posted by FW

Let's not forget that what John said is the bottom line. If someone gets past the grate, and the insurance company finds out, GSO looses their insurance, and *WE* loose access to the entrance, no matter who owns the cave itself.

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That sounds like something for their lawyer to straighten out since they have no "legal" standing to install the grate or to prosecute anyone who would remove it.

Although I think it's fine there, I do believe that it is not something that could be fought in court if it were removed.

I actually find it odd for an insurance company to require an item to be placed in a location blocking egress to something not owned by the covered. Then again, I wouldn't put it past an insurance company to do so... :roll:

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Originally Posted by FW

As it has been pointed out, they can't block the river entrance, but they can put a fence up across the run, keeping us out of the Eye. Besides Jason, who here wants to own/rent a boat, or canoe, and add the time involved with transporting yourself and gear from a remote dock? Nevermind what would happen to your vehicle while you were gone.

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They wouldn't do that because it would affect the tubers use of the property and runs. We all know the tubers can't be affected.... :yawinkle:

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

No, because the river is a navigable waterway, the underground river is not.

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It could be argued that the cave is in fact a navigable waterway because it is, in a round about way, used for interstate commerce. Someone from another state comes to Florida, pays to get tanks filled and then pays for land access to the cave. Grating off the cave may have prevented people from out of state from coming to Florida and spending money to dive that cave. Therefore grating off the cave affects interstate commerce, and the cave can be defined as a navigable waterway.

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Originally Posted by Marchand

It could be argued that the cave is in fact a navigable waterway because it is, in a round about way, used for interstate commerce. Someone from another state comes to Florida, pays to get tanks filled and then pays for land access to the cave. Grating off the cave may have prevented people from out of state from coming to Florida and spending money to dive that cave. Therefore grating off the cave affects interstate commerce, and the cave can be defined as a navigable waterway.

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Navigable Lakes and Rivers
The Public Trust Doctrine protects the public status of "navigable" water bodies. Florida case law defining "navigability" is clearly established. A waterway is navigable if at the time of statehood in 1845,(14) it was used or was capable of being used(15) as a highway for waterborne trade or travel(16) conducted by the customary modes of that period.(17) Navigability does not require year-round capacity for navigation, but does require capacity for navigation in the water body's ordinary state.(18) Contemporary capacity for navigation in vessels of the size used for transporting passengers and goods in the statehood period is substantial evidence of navigability.(19) Artificial water bodies or waterways rendered navigable through improvement by dredging are not legally navigable.(20) Customary modes of waterborne trade and travel in the mid-1800s included steamboats,(21) barges,(22) dug-out canoes,(23) and home-made skiffs,(24) all of which were used to transport passengers, products of the country, and produce from local farms.(25) Navigability must also be understood in the context of the land transportation system that existed at the time of statehood. Railroads were virtually nonexistent. In 1845, the only railroad in the state ran from Tallahassee to St. Marks, operated on wooden rails, and had carts pulled by mules.(26) Engines didn't arrive until 11 years later.(27) Roads were little better. The legislature declared that public roads were in satisfactory condition so long as the tree stumps left in the road were less than 12 inches high,(28) the few bridges that existed washed out during times of high water, and uncertain ferry service provided crossing of all the major streams.(29) As a result, lakes and streams were by far the most reliable public highways for moving goods and people.

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I dont think even Forrest Wilson was cave diving in 1845. I think a strong case can be made that the public's right to travel ends at the high water mark extending vertically downward. Vandalizing the grate at ginnie would be dealt with harshly, just as if someone swam to the back of LR and vandalized the well casing.

Definition of
Navigable Waters of the US...

a. Past, present, or potential presence of interstate or foreign commerce;

I guess it all depends on who's definition you use...

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Originally Posted by Marchand

Definition of
Navigable Waters of the US...

a. Past, present, or potential presence of interstate or foreign commerce;

I guess it all depends on who's definition you use...

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Read Daniel Ball.

What about all the laws about defacing caves that were quoted chapter and verse during the whole DIC incident. Drilling into cave walls to put a grate up, I would suspect, would be considered by state law as defacing or vandalism no?