Taking Care of the Kids

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Originally Posted by skip

I understand that self-responsibility is the key to cave diving, but recently we've seen deaths that simply were not the fault of the diver.

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I think you would have to give a couple of examples of this.

I, for one, would not ever vote for an increase in dues to cover people who are not financially responsible enough to determine if death due to their past time will impact their families. If you feel that you dont want to pay the additional insurance to cover your cave diving and keep your family secure, then perhaps you are too cheap to be cave diving, or perhaps cave diving is more important than your family. Either way, if you want to set up an independent fund for irresponsible (or unlucky?) cave divers, by all means, but dont force it on those that do take care of things.

jason

p.s. thanks again for the tent! :)

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Originally Posted by rchrds

I think you would have to give a couple of examples of this.

I, for one, would not ever vote for an increase in dues to cover people who are not financially responsible enough to determine if death due to their past time will impact their families. If you feel that you dont want to pay the additional insurance to cover your cave diving and keep your family secure, then perhaps you are too cheap to be cave diving, or perhaps cave diving is more important than your family. Either way, if you want to set up an independent fund for irresponsible (or unlucky?) cave divers, by all means, but dont force it on those that do take care of things.

jason

p.s. thanks again for the tent! :)

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The examples I was thinking of were the oxtox cases (or so believed due to lack of any other cause) of late. I am definitely no thinking of untrained divers going where they don't belong and a fund that helps members families (not nonmembers) in real need. I was also bouncing off the DiPanfilo's article in which he referred to widows and children in dire need (I took it for granted that his statement was/is valid, but maybe it isn't).

Also, I would never think of imposing or forcing things onto others; I did state I'd pay more in dues if needed and I would, but I think a volunteer fund is better idea. In fact, I think a group life insurance policy available to members who want it is the best idea, but that seems difficult to come by. Remember, most people do not have access to insurance that covers risky activities (I am sure you do, as do I, but most policies exclude diving).

Anyway, it a suggestion for discussion and I see the point of those who think it's a violation of self-sufficiency and self-responsibility. I do agree with you on a personal level, but also think the cave diving community has a responsibility to our fellows to not let their families go wanting if we can help it (whether they died in a cave or on the highway).

-skip

PS: you're welcome! glad I was able to help out.

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Originally Posted by Tony

I dont... many organizations have funds to help support families. The marine corp has a fund to pay for the college education of kids of marines killed in service... just an example.

I would be more than happy to contribute in support of kids and families in need, regardless of the circumstances...

Regardless of the details, regardless of circumstance, you still have compassion for the kids... they had no role in what has happend, not their fault... but they are impacted.

More than happy to help.

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As a Marine myself I support the fund for children of fallen service members. Those men gave their lives selflessly for others. I was in two combat zones, if I was to have died I would not expect anyone to pay for my family, but I would greatly appreciate it. Now, if I go and get myself killed in Little river doing something that I think is fun and is all for me then I died selfishly and no one is responsable to pay for my screw up.

If one wants others to take care of ones loved ones after ones (unfortunate) passing, especially during a recreational activity, then one should live in a society that supports that.

There are many 'nanny states' in the world, many do not have caves like we do here in FL. (and I use state in the true sense of the word).

There are life policies out there that do not have cave diving in their questionnaire............as long as you do not freely give this info and they do not ask............. you are not lying or misrepresenting. Once you passed the two year 'the insurance can refute everything' period, you are home free to kill yourself in a cave and leave a nice bonus for the misus and kids.

timely discussion. i'm working on getting life ins right now, and i'm a single parent. i want to provide for my baby. i was honest about diving though glossed over cave diving since i hadn't done it in a year at the time i applied. if i can't get ins...then i'd love to hear what suggestions you'll have.

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Originally Posted by johnnyrichards

Not "cold hearted"- just a matter of accepting personal responsibility for yourself and those who depend upon you. We live in a society in which it is another's fault or another's responsibility- never our own.

I agree with Bob- right on.

JR

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Hi Johnny,

While I am ALL FOR accepting personal responsibility, sometimes things happen that are out of our control. While I would not like to have an increased fee on my dues, I strongly believe that the NACD or the CDS should make it a priority to find an insurance carrier, and offer it through the organization. Something similar to DAN. Although I am not sure as to the exact numbers of NACD or CDS members that have met their end in a cave, I assume that the number is relatively low. I would be willing to get such a policy, and it might even draw in new members for that reason. Dan requires you to be a member before you can get their insurance. How many people do you think would be members of DAN if you could get their insurance without membership? It could be a much needed financial boost to the cave organizations, which in turn, might let us get more caves!

I just don't see how it's such a bad idea... :smt102

I don't think it's a big deal to find term life insurance that doesn't have a cave diving exclusion. I have a 10 year policy with met life, they never asked about cave diving.

If you dive in the caves there is a risk, very very low but not zero, that you will die. if you are financially responsible for someone else, and you don't carrry sufficient insurance to take care of them in the event of your passing, you're just gambling that the risk is acceptable. But like every other gambling event, you shouldn't expect to get bailed out if you lose the gamble. Be responsible for your decisions in the world.

Volunteer funding ? Sure, go for it. Increase my dues ? No.

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Originally Posted by BobK

If you dive in the caves there is a risk, very very low but not zero, that you will die. if you are financially responsible for someone else, and you don't carrry sufficient insurance to take care of them in the event of your passing, you're just gambling that the risk is acceptable. But like every other gambling event, you shouldn't expect to get bailed out if you lose the gamble. Be responsible for your decisions in the world.

Volunteer funding ? Sure, go for it. Increase my dues ? No.

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I agree ~ Well said.

Baby Duck if you are a single mother with a child and no ins and no large mound of money I personally would hang up my drysuit for a while. If I did have kids they would be my world, thank god I have 2 wonderful dogs that let me go diving.

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Originally Posted by RH

Baby Duck if you are a single mother with a child and no ins and no large mound of money I personally would hang up my drysuit for a while. If I did have kids they would be my world, thank god I have 2 wonderful dogs that let me go diving.

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You could also die tomorrow morning while crossing the street. When it's your time, it's your time. There's no cheating the reaper! I say, live your life like today is the last day. No regrets.