How was the NACD meeting?

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11-20-2007 01:42 PM
MengTze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

I'm sure I'll get shredded for this, but...

Was I the only one that had a real problem with Leon's little speech on sunday?

He didn't say a dam thing about his breather, and spent the entire time slamming other instructors, training agencies, and manufacturers.

It felt very unprofessional and a rather cheap shot at the industry while on his soapbox.

Other than that it was pretty awesome :-D

What I took from that was the following. ISC sees a challenge in the competition coming up in the RB arena. There are only so many RB divers and more and more manufacturers are fighting over a small pool of customers.

His poise on his ISO 9001:2000 was to show that he makes quality products. They DO!, but not because of ISO certification. That certification assesses consistency, if you start with crap, you will consistently make crap. If you do make quality products, you will consistently do so.Luckily they do make an excellent product.

Yes Mike, I was somewhat surprised at Leon's apparent frustration, maybe anger and fear of the future and others coming into view. Innovation will keep things afloat, not personalities.
11-20-2007 07:48 PM
Mike Edmonston

Quote:

Originally Posted by MengTze

Innovation will keep things afloat, not personalities.

Yup, I can't agree more. what really burns me is that Beth and I REALLY wanted Leon to tell us the nitty gritty of his machine. I know it's an awesome product, it's built like a tank, but he treated us all like 2 year olds.

During the break, I went to talk to leon about the Apex electronics, I had questions. His response was more or less "if you have to ask, you don't belong on my machine".

Like we discussed about the RB-80 + training, that's not a positive business plan. Beth and I are now in the market for some new rebreathers, and he has potentially alienated 2 clients that were pretty excited about his machine.

I just don't get it... Oh well, it looks like we're picking up 2 Inspirations instead. Such is life..
11-20-2007 10:43 PM
PerroneFord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Beth and I are now in the market for some new rebreathers, and he has potentially alienated 2 clients that were pretty excited about his machine.

I just don't get it... Oh well, it looks like we're picking up 2 Inspirations instead. Such is life..

Come on man. The Meg is one of the best rebreathers on the market. Are you seriously going to not buy it because you had a chance to meet the owner of the company and don't care for him? I have no doubt that owners of many companies from whom I purchase products wouldn't be my best buddies. But if they make a great product, I'll buy it.

The Inspiration seems to be a quite different rebreather than the Meg. At least from my looking at both. Are you giving up anything crucial to buy that one instead?
11-21-2007 09:36 AM
Walter Pickel

I personally thought Lamar did a great job staying away from the politics and talking about their units. After diving so much with Brett, the logic he has with respect to bailout (BOVs), etc aren't really addressed with any of the other units. However, I have seen the Optima and the Meg both dove with offboard bailout sucessfully.

Just my OC 2¢
11-21-2007 10:29 AM
Mike Edmonston

Quote:

Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Beth and I are now in the market for some new rebreathers, and he has potentially alienated 2 clients that were pretty excited about his machine.

I just don't get it... Oh well, it looks like we're picking up 2 Inspirations instead. Such is life..

Come on man. The Meg is one of the best rebreathers on the market. Are you seriously going to not buy it because you had a chance to meet the owner of the company and don't care for him? I have no doubt that owners of many companies from whom I purchase products wouldn't be my best buddies. But if they make a great product, I'll buy it.

The Inspiration seems to be a quite different rebreather than the Meg. At least from my looking at both. Are you giving up anything crucial to buy that one instead?

Hi Ford,

Long time no chat...

The inspo is not really different. Scrubber, front counterlungs, electronics. For Beth and I, it really came down to the Optima, the Meg, and the Inspo. We dove the Optima and the inspo. Both are great machines. For the diving that we do, we would like to stick with loose sorb as opposed to cartriges. Nothing wrong with the extendair (Used them in the NAVY), but loose sorb is more widely available in places that we dive. I am very familiar with the meg, and what it really comes down to is the electronics. I really like the Inspo electronics, and I was there Sunday to LEARN about the MEG Apex electronics. Again, what burns me is that the owner of the company thought that we were not worth the time. If he feels that way before a sale, how's he going to treat us after we buy the machine. I have friends STILL waiting for parts from Leon. Sorry, my life doesn't run on his schedule.

IMHO, the MEG and the Inspo are both very capable machines. I choose to dive the Inspo because I FEEL better about the service that I'll receive if I ever need something from the company.

You really have to worry when someone (Leon) is so overconfident about their product. It eventually clouds your vision. It leads to the inevitable "It can't be my product's fault, I build the best product" attitude.

That my friend, might eventually cost someone his life, and I'd rather it not be mine.
11-21-2007 10:41 AM
Gary

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepSea

After diving so much with Brett, the logic he has with respect to bailout (BOVs), etc aren't really addressed with any of the other units.

Yay - big bailout! That's my ticket. Brett's KISS CCR and the RB80 were the "Big bailout" units. We actually got to dive a couple of the KISS units. I think Brett's mod would have been our choice among the CCRs.

I've been designing my own. The RB80 would probably be the closest thing to what we are building (big bailout, no electrical controls and simple to use). But after looking at all the work to design and build our own we'd probably actually be willing to pay the big bucks to avoid the hassle. No luck there though: can't buy or take the course unless you are DIR all the way through Tech 2+.

That's OK though, we really didn't have $20K to spend and I think I'd rather die then dive DIR anyway. ;-)

Kind of the opposite of Leon's ISO-9000 tested rig: no controls, no inspections, be my own guinea pig. :)
11-21-2007 10:50 AM
curtschu

If you want an RB-80

If you can't buy the the RB-80 but want that style what about this unit?

http://www.frogdiver.com/pricelist.html
11-21-2007 11:12 AM
Mike Edmonston

Re: If you want an RB-80

Quote:

Originally Posted by curtschu

If you can't buy the the RB-80 but want that style what about this unit?

http://www.frogdiver.com/pricelist.html

Stay AWAY!!!!!!

I talked to him at length at DEMA,

1. NO water traps
2. Backmounted counterlungs with NO DRAINS
3. Depth limited to 130ft
4. NOT DESIGNED FOR CAVES!!
5. Insanely small scrubber.

for SCR's this is a much better bet, and 1/2 the price About
http://www.hbtechnology.it/sporttechdet.php
11-21-2007 11:44 AM
MengTze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

..... It leads to the inevitable "It can't be my product's fault, I build the best product" attitude.

That my friend, might eventually cost someone his life, and I'd rather it not be mine.

ISC is in a good position as to product development and manufacturing. The Meg is an outstanding unit and given that the manufacturing process is certified, I think it would take actual malice to create a dud system and get it in the hands of a customer. So I would not worry about that too much.

(not pointed at anyone)
On the other hand, many people are emotional buyers and with the strong personalities at play, one would not be hard pressed to see people shy away from ISC. I too am not fond of the man, but he makes a fine RB. So I'll stick with that for now.
11-21-2007 11:55 AM
Gary

Thanks.

Ours is headed more towards a "sidemount" unit carried like a stage bottle (like Duncan's D5) SCR running off standard doubles which also serve as bailout gas. And it'll run off a standard deco computer as if you are just using standard OC equipment - with the option of running higher PO2s for deco like a CCR.

In my theory efficiency is nice but doesn't do any good in a cave if you still need to carry full bailout. Anything more then 4:1 is nice but unnecessary. CCRs commonly run in the 20-30 to 1 range but then if they crash you've got to have bailout sufficient to get you out - which means you can't go farther then your dilutent.

Even the RB80 isn't what we wanted - it'd just be easier then building our own. We'll have some features I can't really talk about until my patent lawyer says it's OK. ;-)

(In other words: I could tell you but then I'd have to make you dive it without training.) ;-)

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