What exactly are you reading to come to the conclusion that any cave organization is supporting this? I didn't see anything in that document to support that.
Marbry
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What exactly are you reading to come to the conclusion that any cave organization is supporting this? I didn't see anything in that document to support that.
Marbry
In my opinion, they are defacto supporting it by not doing anything about it. By organizations not printing articles in their journals or by refusing to address issues that directly affect cave systems, or simply ignoring the pleas of members to take action they are not doing what they have stated to their membership as the intention of the organization.
NSS CDS Constitution
ARTICLE II: The purpose of the organization shall be the same as that of the National Speleological Society (hereafter referred to as NSS), with the additional purpose of organizing NSS members who are interested in cave diving so that they may better promote the objectives of the NSS. These objectives include 1) promotion of the conservation, exploration, and study of underwater caves; and 2) education for increased awareness, safety, and skill in cave diving.
NACD By-Laws
1.03 Primary Purpose
The primary purpose of the National Association for Cave Diving, as stated in Article II -Nature of Business of the Articles of Incorporation, is to provide educational material and information related to the art of safe cave diving for any and all interested persons.
Pursuant to this purpose, the NACD will;
...
(6) encourage and support the conservation of the cave environment, and the natural ecosystems related to it; and
...
All over the Water Use Permit is the name Karst Environmental Services.. http://www.karstenvironmental.com/Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmaster
In the permit request --quote " As Karst Environmental Services, Inc is providing us with resources and permit support servies, they can be contacted regarding the appropriate technical questions. "
So here you have some pretty well know cave divers SUPPORTING water bottling...
I'm just reading this stuff, it's all right there...
First of all, KES is *NOT* a cave diving organization. It is a consulting firm, and this is exactly what it is they say they do. If you have a problem with that maybe you should take it up with them directly.
It is also a really big jump from saying that no organization has said anything against this specific permit, to say they are doing nothing. These organizations are made up of individuals. If you as an individual see instances like this that need attention from the CDS, NACD or whatever then bring it to their attention.
And lastly, you imply dire consequences with nothing specific posted to back it up.
Personally I don't want to see that either, there are a quite a few springs being bought up even here by water bottling companies. But, to effectively fight this you need solid evidence rather than emotional pleas.
My intent on replying to this entire thread was not regarding organizations; it was to illustrate hypocrisy. Wes Skiles has done a fair amount good for the environment. However, when it comes to money he seems to take a different tone. KES is involved because they market their services to this type of activity: Pepsi, July Spring Water Bottling, etc. They (Wes) are in business to make money; that is clearly evident.
With respect to cave diving organizations, the NACD has refused to publish an article written by an NACD member concerning water bottling permits on the Sante Fe River seemingly because it would ruffle feathers within the Good Ole Boy's club. However, their desire to make this issue quietly go away is simply not going to happen.
At the next NACD Board Meeting, which will be held October 13th, a Tampa-based environmental advocate (and NACD member) has been given 20 minutes to discuss why the NACD should take a stand specifically on water bottling permits being requested for the Sante Fe River. One of which Wes Skiles has said it is more than OK to pull 600K gallons a day out of (maximum of 750K GPD). Her getting the ability to get on the NACD Board Meeting agenda took too much effort. Her request went unresponded to until she pressed the issue again and again.
This simply shows, yet again, the Good Old Boy's network in action.
As an aside, and because of THIS conversation, the State has denied access to the link I posted previously. Given that, you can use this link to access the July Springs Water Bottling company's application. Doesn't it seem odd that in only a couple of hours the population of the State of Florida has been denied access to information that directly affects them? Do not be fooled, draining Florida is BIG BUSINESS and has been for the past 100 years. It started with draining the Everglades.
You have a PMQuote:
Originally Posted by DeepSea
Yes they are. There are a quite a few cavers and cave divers that are involved in the environmental business in some form or fashion. You'd rather have someone there that you *know* has no respect for the environment? And unless you can show they are negligent, or find fault with their data then it doesn't really mean anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepSea
I can't speak specifically to this since I'm not involved in that discussion and have not read the article that I recall. But, there are plenty of other forums to post such an article, the CDF being one.Quote:
With respect to cave diving organizations, the NACD has refused to publish an article written by an NACD member concerning water bottling permits on the Sante Fe River seemingly because it would ruffle feathers within the Good Ole Boy's club. However, their desire to make this issue quietly go away is simply not going to happen.
At the next NACD Board Meeting, which will be held October 13th, a Tampa-based environmental advocate (and NACD member) has been given 20 minutes to discuss why the NACD should take a stand specifically on water bottling permits being requested for the Sante Fe River. One of which Wes Skiles has said it is more than OK to pull 600K gallons a day out of (maximum of 750K GPD). Her getting the ability to get on the NACD Board Meeting agenda took too much effort. Her request went unresponded to until she pressed the issue again and again.
This simply shows, yet again, the Good Old Boy's network in action.
I was just able to navigate to that link at the ftp://ftp.srwmd.state.fl.us address without a problem.Quote:
As an aside, and because of THIS conversation, the State has denied access to the link I posted previously. Given that, you can use this link to access the July Springs Water Bottling company's application. Doesn't it seem odd that in only a couple of hours the population of the State of Florida has been denied access to information that directly affects them?
Yes and there are sustainable uses. How much do you suspect the flow would increase if all the farms and municipalities in the area stopped pumping?Quote:
Do not be fooled, draining Florida is BIG BUSINESS and has been for the past 100 years. It started with draining the Everglades.
Does the drawdown by the proposed wells create an undue negative effect on the cave or the rest of the aquatic habitat? That is the real question that needs to asked. You need to be able to answer that 'Yes', and support that answer with valid evidence to be taken seriously if you want to oppose it.
Wow that is good. I think Wes said something to the effect of "I would rather have it bottled that give it to AG".Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmaster
I remember as a kid 15 years ago my dad and I used to swim across the river to July Springs and swim down into the boil and get rocketed up to the surface from the power of the water. Visiting it today it seems more like a trickle in comparison. I do not have the sophisticated equipment to invent a conclusion that everything is A-OK but I do have my memory. Aside from that, we do have measurable data that river levels are at historic lows, you can walk across the Suwannee river at Little River. You have to portage your canoe/kayak in many places.
I remember reading somewhere that the water that comes out of these springs has been underground for years, its like seeing a supernova of a distant star, by the time we observe it from earth it was already doomed long ago. Once these bottling operations set up shop they are not going anywhere, the money will be in it and if it ruins the springs thats too bad.
This "spring water" craze has to stop. Bottle it yourself from the tap, its healthier for you and the environment. http://www.nalgene-outdoor.com/
WOW what a great topic and issue I throught I had something to say about that letter and how cry baby it seemed. But I like the way this going so much better. Cave divers trying to save the would and local water I know for one I will be at the NACD meeting. I mean I feel that since I was once one of the good ole boys I should be they and see where all this is going to go.I do find this odd that a NACD chair person is handling this issue in this manner to publicly slam a organization that you belong to and sit on the board to well thats just not good politics. I mean I didn't always agree with and how things got done and still don't but you have to work for the greater good as a whole and the people in the membership. But maybe raising this issue will help the greater good let hope so.Because I see some back lash from this one man I love politics.
Richard