abandonment of person

I like Jim C.' s answer to this conundrum of a question.

You do what you can until it endangers your own life & then you have to go.

God forbid any of us has to make this decision.

I have a buddy I've been diving with for several years & I cannot imagine ever having to leave him in a cave.

We knew this sport was dangerous going into to it, no cave diving agency recruits divers to do it, they rather try to talk you out of it & try to train you if you persist in wanting to do it, so if the s**t hit s the fan you better know how to deal with it.

Mike M

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Originally Posted by Tegg

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Originally Posted by amphipod06

How would you like to be the one who gets left?
Just food for thought, not a troll.

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If my buddy left, I would assume that he/she had to in order to save themselves.

It's part of the risk of this activity we have chosen.

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Good point. However, hopefully we'll plan the dive well and use our superior judgement to stay out of situations that would require our superior skills...It was mostly food for thought, not a troll nor judgement on anyone.

Dive safe,

Celia

I have thought about this many times and I do not want my buddy dieing trying to save me. I want him to stay as long as he can so we can work out a plan and try enact it but there will come a time when he has to go. I dive with my wife and a couple of other good friends and occasionally a pick-up diver, I don't want any of them to perish.

So, I don't want to be abandoned, I want as much assistance as they can possibly provide safely, but beyond that it is time to go. I will go on to the end trying to solve my problem.

I guess it should be a discussion that should be had between buddies. Just like the other ones. They should know my intent and my desire as well as I should know theirs. The middle of a crisis is not really the time to ask this question for the first time. Wreck diving I avoid pick-up buddies like the plague. Cave diving it is a semi common reality for me, so I am clear about what I want them to do. I tell them, 'If we get separated, look for me till 3rds, mark the line and exit. More then likely I might be waiting for you at the entrance. I will be looking for you till 3rds and do the same.'

Of course the usual disclaimer applies, the actual conditions will dictate what really happens. Whether you go or you stay will be something that can only be decided in the moment. All the arm chair quarter backing in the word doesn't really apply to the moment when one really starts to question or accept one's mortality and fragility.

Is it me or does this particular thread keep coming up lately? Seems really morbid. How many fatalities have there been that are directly or indirectly caused/exacerbated by a buddy abandoning another buddy? Is this such a common occurrence? How many times have you been abandoned by or separated from your buddy? In my 5 years of diving, unless otherwise planned, the team that entered the water exited the water together. I am sure my time will come when we get hopelessly separated, given enough chances any thing can happen. How does the saying go, 'Play on the train tracks long enough and a train will hit you.'


Thanks for enduring my rambling overtired rant.
Hans

Search until 3rds, mark the line and exit seems a very reasonable approach. Saying no one is left behind may be emotionally satisfying, but when it comes down to hard practicality that may not always be possible.

I would never expect someone I was diving with to overstay and endanger themselves looking for me. For the same reasons I try not to speed and definitely don't drive when I've been drinking. If I choose to engage in an activity with certain risks it's not going to be something that puts others in danger. I know the risks of what I'm gettting into and accept that.

I also think it emphasizes the point that even though you're diving with others you should never be reliant on them. Be mentally and otherwise prepared to be alone. That does not mean just run off and leave someone, but that suddenly being a solo diver should not in itself present a problem to you getting out of the cave safely.

Marbry

Mountaineering is VERY different from cave diving. The air supply is unlimited and the human body has several days of fat reserves. Glaciers and vertical rock or ice are several times as dangerous for a solo climber as for a party of two. Thus, the only reason to abandon a climbing buddy is to get help (e.g., if he needs more than one person to carry him). Although that rule has led to a few double fatalities, it has led to many more double survivals.
In cave diving one can't help a buddy if one doesn't have enough air for both divers. The rule of thirds would apply near maximum penetration; it might not apply at the start of a dive. Folks with much more experience than I should come up with a method of quickly calculating how long to stick around before arrowing the line and leaving. Someone might also be able to come up with something else to do. (Carry a stage bottle or a strobe to leave such emergencies? My thinking is somewhat handicapped by 32 years of mountaineering experience versus 1 year of cave diving.)

Ok, being on both ends of this problem I can give you some insight. First, how far are you from the exit. Most dive buddy issues are in the first 1000 feet of the cave. Have you used your thirds? Do you know the cave? Do you know your buddy? Do you know where you last saw him? What are the conditions?

I know most of my buddies darn well as we have been through all this together at some point. I look as long as I can. My 1/3 of emergency gas is for emergencies. Losing your buddy qualifies. If I am silted out 200 feet from an exit and have 2/3rds of my gas and know they most likely took the jump that some yayho mismarked and I forgot to fix on the way in. Then I will look a long time. See what I am saying. The point is that you have to be a thinking diver at all times. If I can't find my buddy I have faith that I missed them and they are out. If not we already discussed who I should call.

Now when I guide it's quite different. I am extreme in my conservatism. I am a lot more maternal. I take people to caves I helped set up that have a primary line and no jumps they can mess up. I stay behind them both on the way in and the way out. I stick to well marked, high flow caves that I have a lot of experience in. I have been trained to protect the diver and myself with techniques on how to handle panic in divers. Sorry I don't have a card for that and I have heard that will soon be required to be guiding in caves. I know now that there will be cards and insurance required at most of the dive sites to be able to guide. Florida will be like Mexico, does the card and insurance make the guide better than someone with almost 10 years of experience, Hell NO, but it's going to happen because there are a few people in power who want money they can make off selling cards, insurance and guide fees. OK, rant over. Just remember, let the buyer beware. Were are our leaders taking us?

The shadow, AKA, Cindy :)

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Originally Posted by Cindy

Ok, being on both ends of this problem I can give you some insight. First, how far are you from the exit. Most dive buddy issues are in the first 1000 feet of the cave. Have you used your thirds? Do you know the cave? Do you know your buddy? Do you know where you last saw him? What are the conditions?

I know most of my buddies darn well as we have been through all this together at some point. I look as long as I can. My 1/3 of emergency gas is for emergencies. Losing your buddy qualifies. If I am silted out 200 feet from an exit and have 2/3rds of my gas and know they most likely took the jump that some yayho mismarked and I forgot to fix on the way in. Then I will look a long time. See what I am saying. The point is that you have to be a thinking diver at all times. If I can't find my buddy I have faith that I missed them and they are out. If not we already discussed who I should call.

Now when I guide it's quite different. I am extreme in my conservatism. I am a lot more maternal. I take people to caves I helped set up that have a primary line and no jumps they can mess up. I stay behind them both on the way in and the way out. I stick to well marked, high flow caves that I have a lot of experience in. I have been trained to protect the diver and myself with techniques on how to handle panic in divers. Sorry I don't have a card for that and I have heard that will soon be required to be guiding in caves. I know now that there will be cards and insurance required at most of the dive sites to be able to guide. Florida will be like Mexico, does the card and insurance make the guide better than someone with almost 10 years of experience, Hell NO, but it's going to happen because there are a few people in power who want money they can make off selling cards, insurance and guide fees. OK, rant over. Just remember, let the buyer beware. Were are our leaders taking us?

The shadow, AKA, Cindy :)

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Good points

I'm pretty fond of the people I dive with. It would be a hot day in the arctic before I would just up and leave one of my dive buddies. I don't have any friends who are expendable so if it came down to this scenario I would exhaust every option in an effort to get both of us out safely. Failing that we all know that once you enter this realm of Technical/Overhead diving it's wink, wink, nod, nod, understood that we are all responsible for our own survival first inspite of our buddy situation. I have more fun diving with friends but I'm more relaxed solo diving. My "White Knight" syndrome is something I'm very aware of and it plays into my dive planning and the buddies I choose.
Unfortunately or not, I'm the kind of guy that would risk getting myself bent like a pretzel or worse to save my buddies. For the better or for the worse that's who I am and I won't change or apologize for that. That's my answer.