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The problem is most testing facilities are not set up to handle anything aside from the basic gas contaminants (hydrocarbons, etc.), and sometimes they screw these basic analyses up.
Recent evidence suggests there are other things to worry about aside from basic hydrocarbons, etc.
If you need your gas tested, try Analytical Chemists, Inc:
http://www.airanalysis.com/
Seems like bad gas happens quite a bit in cave country...
Care to quantify that for us?Quote:
Originally Posted by barney00
As far as I know this is the second reported case I've heard of in 5 years. Considering the volume of gas that's pumped in cave country I would consider it statistically irrelevent. Not to mention the first was from a person/group with a known "grudge" against the accused and now this one from someone who's opening a diveshop in the near future that would directly compete against the accused. Let's see some results before we jump to conclusions.
I reported one incident, and I have no grudge against anyone involved. However, if passing the details on in an effort to prevent others from encountering a similar situation is considered a "grudge" then so be it.
A second incident happened at another facility a few months later, which numerous people witnessed. It also involved a class of students with a high-profile instructor. Everyone's gas was dumped and the class was postponed that day. I know of many others, but it is true many are not reported. I am also aware of three different dive shops in cave country that have blown oil or other contaminants into divers tanks in the past 3 years. Then there are the various compressor and booster failures people may or may not be aware of.
Most tend to ignore the potential issues and not rock the boat, even though we are talking about potential diver safety. As a result of reporting my incident I got anonymous emails bashing my report, insulting me, and other juvenile stuff. So I guess I can somewhat understand why others don't want to bother with mentioning things publicly.
Ben, and everone else reading this:Quote:
Originally Posted by OneBrightGator
Develop the habit of sniffing your gas. If it has an odor dump it. And remember just because gas with an odor didn't make you sick doesn't mean it is good.
I personally have witnessed at least 6 instances of bad gas in cave country where gas was dumped and dives were aborted.
I was with Barney on the dive referenced in The DecoStop thread and believe it, were it not for good fortune, it most probably would have been another unexplained fatality.
The short story....
We planned a dive to the Hinkle where we were going to drop a stage and do a swim dive. The gas in the stages were from a different source and therefore good.
A team member had a scooter problem so we changed the plan to a swim dive to the double lines area. This required no stages so we were all on back gas. Halfway up the Hill 400 Barney was ill and thumbed the dive. He was swimming erratically and not able to effectively navigate the cave. He could not even recognize his dive buddies and had to be directed at the Hill 400 / gold line jump. It was not until we got to shallow water and lower pressures that he became aware and functional.
We had no idea it was the gas and just thought he was sick so while a team member offered the long hose when he refused it we thought nothing of it.
Now, imaging this happening 3500 feet back in high flow in some small tunnel. What we learned about the contaminants found in the gas was that they would cause a form of intoxication among other things. Pretty scary.
Folks, FWIW, err on the side of caution. If you are not certain, dump the gas. It isn't worth your life.
Mike,Quote:
Originally Posted by barney00
If you're going to claim all these incidents (quote "Many others"), perhaps it would be better to name names. Otherwise you're simply stirring the pot, which is basically juvenile stuff.......
I am seriously into diver safety, especially my own, and would really be interested in any documented data or incidents you know about. We all know about the Rennaker one, what else is there ?
Call it what you will Bob. For me to say more would appear as if I have a "grudge" against certain people. I can't believe with as many people supposedly affected by one incident that blew oil in their tanks, and as much talk as there was on some of these incidents in cave country, no one is willing to say anything. Hopefully no one will have to die before people take this seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobK
Bob:Quote:
Originally Posted by BobK
Think what you wish but please sniff your gas. I was there and it was not a joke. Without naming names, even Inspector Cleauseau could figure this one out.
Regards.
Joe
Think about all those open and cave unexplained deaths.
Heart attack, pre existing this or that. I have had bad gas without even knowing it. I have memories of cruising along a reef or wreck around 80 - 100ft feeling, funny, dissy. It hasn't happened since I started filling my own 6 years ago. How many times has that happened to you? I know of the 2 in Mexico last year that died from bad gas, but how many more have died. I think it happens quite a bit, not always resulting in death.
To put it simply, too much heat breaks down the oil in the compressor.
The tests that are performed to check the gas does not include the ones that kill. So they find some guy off of Key Largo on the bottom, send his gas in to be tested and it comes back fine. So it's another heart attack, but it wasn't it was toulene or another just as deadly.
BoB
I'm not blaming 1 shop. I think it's a whole industry. To keep those compressors running in tip top shape is very expensive. More than .06 or .10 whatever the charge today. I'm remember years ago saying to dive shop owners "Whadda mean $3 a fill the air is free"
Sorry I'm just ranting. But a few people have done alot of work on the subject and it's been posted not read.
Alright, I'll take that one as confirmed... but, I'm guessing that you didn't have the gas analyzed, so you have no proof (I will take it on faith cause I know you two, but others rightfully won't) and since you have no proof you won't name names because you'll get bashed. Besides Mike, you should know that I wasn't talking about you having the issues anyway.
With the number of divers who dive every day with gas from cave country fill stations if this really is a serious concern how come we never hear of any incidents with them? If the quality of your gas is truly a concern, do you carry a CO2 detector with you? That'd help a lot with the ol' snoz test.
Yes, we did have the gas analyzed. First by Lawrence Factor, which totally screwed up everything. They did not even get the O2 content correct. We then got the assistance of Chemical Analysts, Inc. They found toluene in our gas samples. Not good stuff to be breathing. They also informed us of several issues with standards in the gas analysis business. We also have been working extensively with an MD who has been dealing with this issue for quite a while in regards to firefighters. He has been working extensively on a paper that will be published on this issue. It is long over-due and I hope he will have it done soon. He has sent me drafts and the results are shockingly scary. There are numerous things wrong within the industry, some of which is traced back to compressor companies. For example, Bauer recommending a synthetic oil that the manufacturer (Shell) has an MSDS that clearly states "not for breathing applications due to the production of H2S". Most of this is due to ignorance of these issues -- no one has looked at this before or had a clue synthetic oils had the potential to cause so many problems. Some of this has been posted and documented in a couple of TDS threads. Unfortunately, until the paper is peer-reviewed and accepted for publication, I am unable to post it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneBrightGator
We have also worked with several MDs with DAN and in the offshore oil business. The effects of these vapors are varied, and can cause all sorts of physiological responses. Some MDs compared the neurological effects to sniffing glue. To get an idea of the effects of oil vapors, try this one on for size:
http://www.analox.net/site/content_video/HyperGas.mpg
Pretty freaking scary.
There are numerous reasons why other divers may not have significant issues with bad gas. First could be the fact they did have one, and simply did not report it or did not fully recognize the problem. During one incident a diver was warned of a potential issue and told he should sniff his gas. He did and said it smelled like a "nasty rubber inner tube". Then -- amazingly -- he said since he was doing a quick dive and would be shallow (this was at Peacock) he didn't think it was a big deal and proceeded to dive. Second, these oil vapor issues are very transitory and not consistent. You can get slugs of bad gas right before or after filter change, when they are compromised due to moisture. There is a whole companion thread on compressor safety issues that came out from this discussion on TDS, which details the avenues for contaminant breakthrough. Other reasons could be due to various individuals' susceptibility of these vapors, and the fact many sites in cave country are fairly shallow. I don't know, and don't really care at this point. I know it can and has happened. And regardless of the perceived lack of reports or incidents, it does not make it a non-issue. For those monitoring incident reports, there was a double fatality (two separate divers) in Mexico due to CO, a double fatality at Roatan due to bad gas, and a double fatality in the Red Sea, also to bad gas. There have been other unusual incidents that some suspect as a result of bad gas, but were ultimately your standard "heart attack/drownings". This is just in the past few years. One is really too many.
Yes, we did get a CO monitor. Unfortunately, it does not address these issues we had with oil vaports, and it has had issues.
I don't really care if people on here are skeptical or want to attack me. However, it seems every time I am in cave country I hear details of some gas issue periodically. We are done rolling the dice on this -- that's one of the nice benefits of a rebreather.