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Captain speleo I stand corrected but, what I saw was small boulders on the floor moved one to two feet with a cut in the floor at least one inch deep.
It very well might of been stage bottles but had to have been a hell of a hit.
I don't know what it was but, it was very noticeable.
I dive wih anyone that is solid,.. of thier comfort and skill level- there are so many caves out there- that yes a few must be used to show students how its done. Even with Full Cave its only the starting point. The real exp starts building after the cert.Quote:
Originally Posted by allen
#### happens, hell i have made mistakes. Climed out of "holes" to urinate, bounced myself of the clay-floor, left peter trails on the ceiling. The more you dive the better you get. Thats the way it is. If they were (students) not able to train, with the multi-tasking and "true" enviroment with the few caves that are "able" to be taught in. Would you/or anyone else dive with a Cave cert from a pool/lake/river?
Looking at the students- the focus is wrong- yes they make errors welcome to cave diving- learn and move on. The Full Cave who only dives in a "cave" once out of the year is the same student that was taught 4yrs ago that is still learning and unable to gain the exp any other way. Popular caves are just that, low flow, good vis, and large enough to allow errors with as little damage to the enviroment as possible.
Take in to account the number of divers/cave trained that visit the popular holes- Even though i have bitched and yelled at some of the stupid #### i have seen being done. The damage even though its not replace-able or repair able there is measures that were done. One being the line, lights out, line following,drills and such are used in a manner to help the cave as well as the student or the not so frequent caver who needs a refreasher.
Im done and stepping off the box- great game by the way and HELL of a party. I do think that we have talked about this issue before. But in a sense it kinda makes you feel a bit of pride because more and more are paying attention to the cave. Thats a plus, in my book. :-)
I got Intro Cave certified in 1987 and built up a lot of experience before getting Full Cave certified in 1989. Too many divers are going from Openwater to Full Cave within a matter of months, then they consider themselves to be on the same level as the cave divers who have been diving caves for years.
Some of the cave systems are and should be restricted to Full Cave divers only, and then only to those Full Cave divers who have shown proof of experience and proficiency. There's no way in hell that I'd want to be a "newbie" Full Cave diver and then try to dive Hart Spring - Black Lagoon, Cow Spring, Alachua Sink, Thunder Hole, and some of the others.
The purpose of using Hart springs is not only is it a spectular park,but supporting the park helps to keep access,so you'll have a chance to see it in the future. Diving there is the least of the activites,and I'd hope as an intro diver you'd feel encouraged to come since there are a lot things going on,and some top cave divers,that could help your diving. The good news is Manatee is approx 15 miles away.Quote:
Originally Posted by allen
I saw all the marks on the floor in Orange Grove last weekend and was appalled.It was definetly a stage bottle slung too low.And the guy was either solo or last in the team.As we neared challenge it got much more pristine.There was also multiple hand prints along the way.Personally,I had no trouble at all switching to double tanks.Lack of buoyancy at rises and drops is the reason most marks are there,with the exception of the stage grooves,thats where the majority of the marks are.I dont think any instructor would take students who's buoyancy isnt proven at rises and drops in the floor,into a soft,mudzone to botch up.The peanut tunnel,I feel is the best place for that all important up and down practice.
My diving buddy and I like to go off the beaten path at times when we dive Orange Grove. Our last dive into the far reaches of the Distance Tunnel was nice because the passage and silty floor were 99.99% pristine. We tend to do most of our dives in sidemounts instead of backmounts because besides the additional safety factor that it gives us, it allows us more room for error so we don't come in contact with the ceiling or floor.
As was mentioned in the recovery class I had taken, not all marks left in caves are from inexperienced divers, etc. Sometimes it's the unfortunate result of recovery operations.
If you don't believe what aw said, look at the floor near the well casing in Little River and the downstream passage just beyond the 270' restriction in Eagles Nest.
You can also check out JB from 300' in to about 700' in, and the first few jumps off of that area. Scrapes, kneeling marks, clawing, etc. JB isn't one of the typical training caves and where the marks are shouldn't be where intro level divers are at.
OG is pretty bad. There are marks well into the caves which are, I would think, past where intro level people would have turned.Quote:
Originally Posted by ltb7733
The worse I have seen at Peacock is on the peanut line at the 1st or was it the 2nd jump to water hole. You could see deep hand prints from people that lost their buoyancy getting their jump reel out. Just couldn't believe it. It's a pretty big passage up there and it doesn't go up or down.
These aren't from students. They are from "certified" divers.