Want rapid accident analysis and want the IUCRR to determine a mechanism

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

I'm a volunteer RRSOM/Diver with IUCRR. According to the Current RRSOM Manual:



The IUCRR exists to assist law enforcement. If the official position of the organization has changed regarding "and will be posted to the IUCRR Web site" I think that is something that needs to be addressed either by adhering to that policy or changing the standards to reflect that information will only be shared with law enforcement.

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I appreciate this entire paradigm that has been established, and that job that has been done, but since cave diving is built upon accident analysis, where is this information? Just imagine if "Blue Print to Survival" was written now- cave diver x was recovered from LIttle River, nothing to report; cave diver y was recovered from Ginnie, nothing to report. Who hasn't learned anything from Blue Print, even veteran cave divers learn from it. Was Sheck ever rebuked by family/law enforcement or sued in a court of law? No, if things are reported objectively and tastefully, I think we can have accident analysis, and still perform the function of IUCRR. I knew Henry Nicholson who created the basis of this, and don't ever recall him not wanting accident analysis provided in a reasonable time after an accident.

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Originally Posted by jcr

The current system is broken and I believe the IUCRR as an organization has outlived its usefulness. IUCRR or not, cave divers will continue to perform body recoveries.

I propose that the NSS-CDS takes up the mantle and creates a call-up list of qualified recovery divers. The recovery teams should issue a statement of facts as soon as practical (like the double fatality at Eagles Nest) to be followed by more detailed accident analysis, which should be released in writing and presented at the annual conference. In addition, a database should be created to track fatalities and analyze trends over time.

Recovery divers do not work for law enforcement. They are volunteers that are willing do a difficult job for the cave diving community. Their loyalty is to the deceased and the deceased's family as well as the cave diving community.

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100% this. The NSS-CDS has an opportunity to lead and provide a service for all cave divers.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

When I posted the info from the recovery before this one at ginnie I received a rude email from Beth of ginnie and iucrr fame threatening legal action if I didnt stop posting and didnt take it down. I ignored it because there is nothing illegal about my posts. It was grandstanding to try and scare me. Very pathetic.


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Not to change the subject of this post but a quick point of information: Beth is no longer with Ginnie, so I doubt that will happen again. There aren't really any people connected to cave diving who work at GSO anymore. This is potentially a scary thing as it relates to ease of future access. While Beth may have been rough sometimes, she supported cave diving at Ginnie.

I have zero faith the cds could even get halfway through the process of getting this approved let alone actually going full bore and accomplishing it.
I?ve said for years the cds should give up training and focus on conservation, land management, and public relations. Adding a recovery team would fit well with that idea.
Unfortunately over the past 6 years or so the cds has become a broken organization that cant even manage their membership. So managing to get to the point of having a recovery team is extremely unlikely. I?d like to see it happen, but it aint happening.


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Originally Posted by lord1234

Not to change the subject of this post but a quick point of information: Beth is no longer with Ginnie, so I doubt that will happen again. There aren't really any people connected to cave diving who work at GSO anymore. This is potentially a scary thing as it relates to ease of future access. While Beth may have been rough sometimes, she supported cave diving at Ginnie.

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I?m aware Beth is no longer at ginnie. She has/still works as one of the directors(not sure of official title) of the iucrr. I probably wasnt clear, but she sent the email on behalf of the iucrr not ginnie. So the message was if I dont shut up the iucrr will take legal action. Which is complete bs since nothing illegal was done. Completely idle threats.
I only said Beth of ginnie and iucrr fame because most people seem to remember her as the Ginnie manager.


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Originally Posted by rddvet

I have zero faith the cds could even get halfway through the process of getting this approved let alone actually going full bore and accomplishing it.
I?ve said for years the cds should give up training and focus on conservation, land management, and public relations. Adding a recovery team would fit well with that idea.
Unfortunately over the past 6 years or so the cds has become a broken organization that cant even manage their membership. So managing to get to the point of having a recovery team is extremely unlikely. I?d like to see it happen, but it aint happening.


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There's a solid group of guys who have recovery skills/ experience who are fed up with IUCRR and their "policies". Its really not that hard to move that group over to the CDS.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

There's a solid group of guys who have recovery skills/ experience who are fed up with IUCRR and their "policies". Its really not that hard to move that group over to the CDS.

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I agree, getting the recovery team switched is the easy part. The legal aspect will be tough and honestly just getting the cds organized enough to actually move forward with it is the hardest part. I hope that the new blood in the cds will make the changes for something of this proportion to happen. But imo its too far gone. I dont foresee it happening. I hope I?m pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it.
How long did it take to get any sort of hold on membership information/database? Way too fing long.


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Ski resorts have fatalities too and don't get sued or shut down.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

100% this. The NSS-CDS has an opportunity to lead and provide a service for all cave divers.

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Jon Bernot and I will be giving an accident analysis presentation at the NSS-CDS Conference on Memorial Day weekend and among other things, I hope to discuss how we can improve the release of factual information and get back to proper accident analysis, which is essential to cave diver training.

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Originally Posted by jcr

Jon Bernot and I will be giving an accident analysis presentation at the NSS-CDS Conference on Memorial Day weekend and among other things, I hope to discuss how we can improve the release of factual information and get back to proper accident analysis, which is essential to cave diver training.

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Thanks. Looking forward to it!


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