Dynamic Compaction in Florida

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

Oh!! Yes!!! I finally got it!!!

Lime Rock mining with, Dynamite, Earth Moving Dozers, Dumptrucks, and Backhoes all powered by Diesel fuel and operating within a 1 mile radius of the "Little River Cave" is acceptable.

Retail Mega-Store started by a lower middle class Oklahoma farmboy who started with nothing and created one of the top two or three American success stories in this century by offering lower prices, higher than average wages and frequented by lower income Families built next to "Alachua Sink" is totally unacceptable.

It took me awhile but it is all very clear to me know. I'm going to contact Walmart and see if they would like to purchase my property over by "Little River" and they could build there and avoid getting raked over the coals. I'll make a killing!! ::joy

Does anyone know if you can fit a Super Walmart on 5 acres??? No? Damn! I guess I'll have to call Walgreens then.

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No it's not OK. Forgive me but I am only one human being. I cannot handle every cave and every problem. I have not been to Little River for over two years and I did not know about the Quarry. Why do you think that I would think that's OK? If you had been at one single talk I gave you would have clearly heard me state that I think there needs to be a State wide Underground Rivers protection act. I am trying to work on that issue. The only thing that I can ask of you is to keep informing people and try to get something done to stop it. I simply have too much going on to be able to handle that problem right now. Kelly and I are both trying to help caves when we can and as much as we can. Attacking us and putting us down doesn't help the situation. We need a united front to be able to deal with these problems. If you want more information on what to do you can call me and l can walk you through some steps that may be helpfull. No one who is involved in Cave Protection is doing this with evil intent. There are a lot of us out there now and we are forming a network of Cave Divers who are interested in doing what we can to stop this type of thing from happening. We can help with a lot of things if you decide to actually try to get something done. I was unable to help Gene Melton with the Cathedral issues because of time constraints. I am not able to do anything but offer advice to you about what to do in this situation. Please quit taking shots at me and the ongoing efforts at Mill Creek. I am doing the very best that I can do as a human being and I don't deserve this from you or anyone else. Cindy Butler

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Originally Posted by Spectre

Feel free to google search for MBTE contamination and form your own opinions on the issue.

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To add to this, a personal experience.
I worked at a gas station as a clerk. There are wells for the gasoline, and there are EPA observation wells. One night the tanker driver mistakenly pumped 10000 gallows of 87 octane into an EPA observation well. All the protective liners and magical technology to prevent contamination can fail from one stupid mistake. Food for thought.

S$% happens, and some of the pro-gas station types on here are out of their professional expertise I think.

Furthermore, just for the record, SRWMD has very limited powers over this whole affair, Basically just surface water impacts. Letter writing campaigns and such would be better directed at the City of Alachua (not county), and might not muddy the waters so much at SRWMD (excuse the horrible pun).

Regards, Drew Glasbrenner

I am FAR from a pro-gas-station type. Of course, you WOULD like gas for your car though, yes?

The MTBE issue is a good example of what happens when tree-huggers get too powerful and get to sell junk science to government.

Let me tell you a bit about MTBE - and Ethanol for that matter.

Once upon a time there was neither. Gasoline was, well, gasoline.

Then came CARB and anti-smog regulations. This first led to EGR, then fuel injection, then catalysts and finally fully-closed-loop engine control - what we have today.

Oxygenated fuels happened roughly at Step #1.5. It was MANDATED under federal law, with literally dozens of different blends made "required" for summer driving (when atmospheric inversion traps exhaust and tends to make smog) in various places around the country.

Only one small problem - the catalyst and closed-loop engine operation made the oxygenates basicaly worthless. Why? Because the point of the oxygenates was to insure that there was enough oxygen left in the charge AFTER it left the combustion chamber so that the fuel would continue to burn on the way out. With the catalysts and closed-loop fuel system, there was no excess fuel in the cylinder to start with, therefore, the oxygenates do basically nothing.

Today, there are, for all intents and purposes, NO cars on the road that are not operating closed-loop with a catalyst (your antique Packard notwithstanding)

But the laws were not changed. So we put literally TONS of MTBE into the fuel system, and its a toxic chemical. We also built an entire subsidized industry around ethanol. Both of these chemicals reduce the fuel content of gasoline, which decreases your mileage as well.

This is a big part of why gas is more expensive in the summer months - it cannot be moved from market to market in the summer to meet demand, because it has been formulated to the specific boutique requirements.

This was all under the radar until last summer, when this little storm called Katrina came visiting. In the aftermath, of course, there were severe gas shortages due to the refineries being knocked offline in the gulf states.

The federal government, in a little-noted regulatory move, lifted the boutique fuel requirements. This was done in an attempt to stop the spot shortages. Gasoline was shipped nationally over pipelines, tankers and rail cars that would not normally leave its market, and non-oxygenated gasoline was sold nationally for several months.

Can you find me one story about how there was a smog problem last summer? Nope. Why not? Because it didn't happen. Why? Because the MTBE and Ethanol, which were temporarily not there, don't help any more! Why not? Because your catalyst and OBD-II ECU on your engine reduce hydrocarbon and other smog-forming emissions to the point that there is very little coming out of your tailpipe other than carbon dioxide and water vapor, in terms of percentages.....

This is what happens when you try to kill ants with a sledgehammer. You have seen a roughly 20 cent/gallon rise in gas over the last few weeks. This is because the RFG rules are kicking in for the summer again. That's 20c/gal you're paying for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, and what's worse is that if you spill any of that MTBE-containing gas on the ground you create a pollution problem that would not otherwise exist.

There's a lesson in here guys and gals - its that environmental concerns, while important, must be balanced by REASON.

BTW Florida is not an oxygenated fuel state and as such MTBE put into fuel for Florida sale is there for octane enhancement rather than pollution control. And, in terms of dangerous chemicals in gasoline, MTBE is not on top of the list.

The primary driver for gasoline contamination in groundwater in Florida is benzene, which is present in all gasoline, is a known carcinogen, and has a much lower action level than MTBE does as an environmental contaminent.

Finally, if you want to argue against accidental releases (E.g from auto accidents) you'd have to move both I75 and 441 in relationship to the cave system. A car accident that results in a gasoline spill is kinda unlikely in a parking lot.... but its fairly common on highways.....

Yawn......

Gosh Cindy..........I never mentioned any names. The old adage if the shoe fits........comes to mind. I appreciate what you do and I wasn't taking shots at you but at the ironies and inconsistancies of activism.
Since as far as I know, I don't personally know any of you I hold no personal animosity towards you or anyone else on this Forum, I only try and point out the things I see as Ironic and in some cases hippocritic and I most certainly do enjoy letting the air out of some body's pompous balloon. The key word here is "I" as in just my opinion. I'm not any smarter than most of you so it truley is just M.H.O.
By the way Daedalus, All of the Observation/Sampling wells I've ever seen have a backflow/check valves installed so that liquid can flow only in one direction. E.P.A. and F.D.E.P. are Nazis when it comes to this sort of thing so I find it hard to believe that this occured. I'm not calling you dishonest but are you sure that you have all of the facts straight? It is nearly impossible to pump liquid against a modern backflow/RPZ. Did this happen a long time ago? Did it make the News?
Well....I applogize if I offended anyone. Some of you are overly uppity though.

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

By the way Daedalus, All of the Observation/Sampling wells I've ever seen have a backflow/check valves installed so that liquid can flow only in one direction. E.P.A. and F.D.E.P. are Nazis when it comes to this sort of thing so I find it hard to believe that this occured. I'm not calling you dishonest but are you sure that you have all of the facts straight? It is nearly impossible to pump liquid against a modern backflow/RPZ. Did this happen a long time ago? Did it make the News?
Well....I applogize if I offended anyone. Some of you are overly uppity though.

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I install and sample these wells on occasion, and I have NEVER seen a check valve on a monitor well. NEVER. These wells are typically 2" PVC with a locking cap and sampled with a piece of tubing and a peristalic pump, something you can't do with a check valve in the way.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/waste/qui...Final-Ap15.pdf

If being right is uppity, I can live with that.

Drew

Hey, I thought that this forum was to talk and share experiences about caves and cave diving. This though is turning into a rather nasty environmental/anti commercialisation fight that probably has very little to do with caves.

May I suggest that you conduct your discussions elsewhere and that perhaps it is time for the moderators of this forum to pull the plug on this somewhat heated discussion.

Peter

Peter, Most people consider saving caves, getting caves open to the public and cave conservation a subject related to cave diving. As with any forum or conversation you can read them and or go on to another topic. The moderators are not here to keep you from getting bored. They are here to keep things civil. Cindy Butler

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

Gosh Cindy..........I never mentioned any names. The old adage if the shoe fits........comes to mind. I appreciate what you do and I wasn't taking shots at you but at the ironies and inconsistancies of activism.
Since as far as I know, I don't personally know any of you I hold no personal animosity towards you or anyone else on this Forum, I only try and point out the things I see as Ironic and in some cases hippocritic and I most certainly do enjoy letting the air out of some body's pompous balloon. The key word here is "I" as in just my opinion. I'm not any smarter than most of you so it truley is just M.H.O.
By the way Daedalus, All of the Observation/Sampling wells I've ever seen have a backflow/check valves installed so that liquid can flow only in one direction. E.P.A. and F.D.E.P. are Nazis when it comes to this sort of thing so I find it hard to believe that this occured. I'm not calling you dishonest but are you sure that you have all of the facts straight? It is nearly impossible to pump liquid against a modern backflow/RPZ. Did this happen a long time ago? Did it make the News?
Well....I applogize if I offended anyone. Some of you are overly uppity though.

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I'm sorry but I don't understand your post. Cindy