Madison blue 04-26-15

yes I am a new cave diver... but I'm not a new caver, I think its just like chrome on an engine.... solid chrome is WAY over kill.... a little bit of chrome can enhance....


I am a tourist, will always be a tourist. Landmarks are nice if you can remember where they are, a stegosaur REALLY stands out. But JUST a little chrome.

Learn the cave and you won't have to rely on garbage left in the cave for navigational decisions. I prefer to use the cave features themselvest as markers. You should really try to be aware of where you are at in the cave and not rely on something temporary that could easily not be there to navigate.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

I have to disagree just a bit with that statement.... there seems to be an awful lot of monuments in the caves too. I mean graffiti is one thing, small things to break the monotony is another. The stegosaur at the jump we made at Madison a few weeks ago is now a landmark for me to know were that jump is (yes double arrows are there, but double arrows are at EVERY marked jump) I'm not suggesting a different "icon" for each jump in a cave, but it definitely makes a more memorable marker. It's not like we are talking about Carlsbad with tons of beautiful formations.... it is mostly just rock and water with a really cool clay bank every once in a while or particular rock formation every 1000 feet.


Now, don't get me wrong, I can't wait till I can make it back to the Rouses monument in Ginnie but all things in moderation.


Tim

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Tim, you have to understand these things cause more of the same until it becomes ridiculous-we have seen it and can testify to it. Where these caves didn't have a vadose phase, they are phreatic, but where there isn't the decorations,they have a very unique beauty, rarely monotonous. Since history repeats itself, when there is an accumulation of toys, the anti-claus appears. The anti-claus are cave divers who hate seeing these things, and they take them all out without announcing themselves. I am not a prude, the bats, pressure gauge, stop light all have landmark status, the other items a majority are considered trash, and typically will be removed.

:)

My only issue is if they are tolerated for more than a week, they should be left. The Stegosaurus is now a part of the cave as far as I am concerned. It is at a particular jump and I will always look for it, I'll be sad if it is gone. I'm not going to be the one to replace it if it does find a way out of the cave. Racoon Mnt had a set of boots in a clay hill, they were left by the prior owner whom the hill absconded away with his or her boots. I can only hope that if I ever get back there the boots will be there. Are they trash? well the first person to see them after the boots were acquired by the hill could have said so, however after the 2nd, 3rd, 40th person saw them they were a part of the cave.

If you are going to remove trash, remove trash. If you are going to accept it as a part of a cave, accept it. As far as the tourist caves go, have some lee-way because they ARE tourist caves. I am more freaked out over gold line carving into the rocks at Madison than I am a Stegosaurus hanging out at a particular jump.... and as I'm sure you are well aware of, there is a LOT of that happening in the cave. However tourist caves or not, carving initials into clay or stone is NOT acceptable and should not be tolerated, that is DESTRUCTION of the cave where the Steg is just a bit of humor.



Tim

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Originally Posted by twaldo

:)
I am more freaked out over gold line carving into the rocks at Madison than I am a Stegosaurus hanging out at a particular jump....

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I am not really bothered by that, or even broken rocks, or worn down spots around the restrictions. I guess some people are but nature is naturally eroding away those rocks anyway. From a Geologic perspective a piece of gold line sawing away or even some initials scratched into a rock isn't going to matter in the grand scheme of things. I'm talking in the LONG run, long after we are extinct.

:) THAT comes from being a dry caver and seeing stuff like that in a dry cave... REALLY REALLY REALLY annoys me, even in tourist caves. And it is WAY more permanent than the Steggy.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

:)

My only issue is if they are tolerated for more than a week, they should be left. The Stegosaurus is now a part of the cave as far as I am concerned. It is at a particular jump and I will always look for it, I'll be sad if it is gone. I'm not going to be the one to replace it if it does find a way out of the cave. Racoon Mnt had a set of boots in a clay hill, they were left by the prior owner whom the hill absconded away with his or her boots. I can only hope that if I ever get back there the boots will be there. Are they trash? well the first person to see them after the boots were acquired by the hill could have said so, however after the 2nd, 3rd, 40th person saw them they were a part of the cave.

If you are going to remove trash, remove trash. If you are going to accept it as a part of a cave, accept it. As far as the tourist caves go, have some lee-way because they ARE tourist caves. I am more freaked out over gold line carving into the rocks at Madison than I am a Stegosaurus hanging out at a particular jump.... and as I'm sure you are well aware of, there is a LOT of that happening in the cave. However tourist caves or not, carving initials into clay or stone is NOT acceptable and should not be tolerated, that is DESTRUCTION of the cave where the Steg is just a bit of humor.



Tim

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In reality placement of all these trinkets violates the intent of the cave vandalism act, "It is also unlawful to dump, litter, dispose of, or otherwise place any refuse, garbage, ......in a cave." Of course one could argue this is not litter or refuse, but definition is in the eyes of the beholder. Gold line leaving marks on the wall, yes this is a problem, and needs to be fixed. The line represents a trail, and like any trail the intent is to confine the wear and tear to this area, versus being more systemic. Bringing toys into the system isn't an integral part of the trail. In some cases things like the bats has become a part of navigation and is accepted,but as many of us have seen these things have a tendency to expand to the point of being ridiculous. One consideration is that Madison is a state park, and they have a very strong interest in the preservation of the cave, and they respect the cave conservation mindedness of the users. In my opinion when we bring in toys, no matter how trivial,then we are interpreted by non-cave divers as having less respect, and the term I have heard,"treating it like a play ground". Remember tourist cave is a term that has been coined by this community, and exists no where else. So are you saying that these caves need to be treated with less respect and consideration? Trust me the owners of these caves don't use this nomenclature, and consider their system as having an equal identity to any place.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

In reality placement of all these trinkets violates the intent of the cave vandalism act, "It is also unlawful to dump, litter, dispose of, or otherwise place any refuse, garbage, ......in a cave." Of course one could argue this is not litter or refuse, but definition is in the eyes of the beholder. Gold line leaving marks on the wall, yes this is a problem, and needs to be fixed. The line represents a trail, and like any trail the intent is to confine the wear and tear to this area, versus being more systemic. Bringing toys into the system isn't an integral part of the trail. In some cases things like the bats has become a part of navigation and is accepted,but as many of us have seen these things have a tendency to expand to the point of being ridiculous. One consideration is that Madison is a state park, and they have a very strong interest in the preservation of the cave, and they respect the cave conservation mindedness of the users. In my opinion when we bring in toys, no matter how trivial,then we are interpreted by non-cave divers as having less respect, and the term I have heard,"treating it like a play ground". Remember tourist cave is a term that has been coined by this community, and exists no where else. So are you saying that these caves need to be treated with less respect and consideration? Trust me the owners of these caves don't use this nomenclature, and consider their system as having an equal identity to any place.

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Kelly, The Cave Vandalism Act is a joke. What is the difference of a Cave we can get into and a Cave we can't being filled with 1000's of Cu Ft of Grout? It still is altering the natural aspect of the underground cave.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

In reality placement of all these trinkets violates the intent of the cave vandalism act, "It is also unlawful to dump, litter, dispose of, or otherwise place any refuse, garbage, ......in a cave." Of course one could argue this is not litter or refuse, but definition is in the eyes of the beholder. Gold line leaving marks on the wall, yes this is a problem, and needs to be fixed. The line represents a trail, and like any trail the intent is to confine the wear and tear to this area, versus being more systemic. Bringing toys into the system isn't an integral part of the trail. In some cases things like the bats has become a part of navigation and is accepted,but as many of us have seen these things have a tendency to expand to the point of being ridiculous. One consideration is that Madison is a state park, and they have a very strong interest in the preservation of the cave, and they respect the cave conservation mindedness of the users. In my opinion when we bring in toys, no matter how trivial,then we are interpreted by non-cave divers as having less respect, and the term I have heard,"treating it like a play ground". Remember tourist cave is a term that has been coined by this community, and exists no where else. So are you saying that these caves need to be treated with less respect and consideration? Trust me the owners of these caves don't use this nomenclature, and consider their system as having an equal identity to any place.

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Cave divers don't have a trademark for the term "tourist cave" we were using that term for high volume wild caves in the Ozarks in the 80's and I am pretty sure way before I started caving. Peacock, Madison, Ginnie and LR are pretty much training caves with high volumes of divers and with that are tourist caves. Manatee has limits imposed, would not call it a tourist cave. Cow is restricted, would not call it a tourist cave.
We do our best to not impact any of them, but the only real way to not impact them is to not dive them. So are you a tourist or a conservationist ? The line is fine, but you have to fall to one side or the other. The state parks know these are tourist caves because they let us dive them, you know that sometimes you have to fight a big battle so you can win the little ones. THANKGOD white nose syndrome doesn't propagate in water filled caves or it would be a wholly different battle.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

The problem is these things historically get out of hand. One piece of cave junk that is added will encourage more people to add something because they think it is "fun", and this causes more. Have seen this happen so many times. for example, one bat at the bats became 3, followed by the troll, and then the Barbie doll. Godzilla used to be one, and then others added more, and at one time we had 4. Then there was find the hidden mask game, move the blue dolphin etc etc etc. Personally the more cave junk we add really makes people think instead of cave conservation minded cave divers, we are treating the place like a play ground. Yellow string is life safety equipment which is imperative for the sport to exist, cave junk has no place in the cave.

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Anybody know how long or why the little plastic turtle is on the line in the wishbone circuit in peacock? I was surprised and a little bothered to see it.