What can be done about damaged clay?

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

If the Twin Cave claw marks have been there since Edd was in backmount, these clearly aren't scars that are going away on their own....and they're not the minor scars only the most avid cave divers would recognize.

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The deep claw marks were made sometime between early October and the second weekend of November this year.

I'm not sure which damage is being discussed here, but there was serious damage in the lower part of twin prior to Sept 1985. I remember thinking that someone had a really bad day back there the first time I dived it and saw that damage. I made a note of it in my log. There were multiple tees and lines running everywhere in that section.

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Originally Posted by dogwatch

I'm not sure which damage is being discussed here, but there was serious damage in the lower part of twin prior to Sept 1985. I remember thinking that someone had a really bad day back there the first time I dived it and saw that damage. I made a note of it in my log. There were multiple tees and lines running everywhere in that section.

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It's mostly jumps now in the lower section. Before October there was damage like fin marks and SPG drag marks. There was also one section in the middle of the gold line circuit where someone had crawled for several feet in the dirt, leaving full body-sized marks.
The new damage is fist/claw prints, 4" to 1' deep. The prints are 2-3' apart and there are countless of those in the lower section, mainly from the bottom of the first fissure to the middle of the circuit where the body marks are.

I don't remember exactly where but it was at least 1k feet into JB there is a long trail that looks as though someone was on the floor quite a bit. Had to have been no vis after that. Kinda looks like someone with a scooter dragged themselves through it.

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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

Blah, Blah, Blah... non-cave diver and you will soon find out that no-one cares about marks in clay, ...., but mark in clay and you will not get you two *#&*'s given by joe public.

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You are correct Joe Public doesn't care about marks in the cave, and in fact Joe Public doesn't care about water quality until they are told that they can't drink the water out of their faucet. The thing is that the person that owns the cave or manages it does, a lot. They have requirement to protect the resource the best they can,and strongly concerned with cave damage. I applaud the original poster for taking an interest and having concern,because yes these marks can have an impact on our access. We have made it very easy for land owners/managers to assess the cave for damage with all the photos and Gopro videos being posted,matter of fact I know one manager that saves and archives these things.

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Does it really break your heart this bad? .

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Would we enjoy "old faithful" at Yellowstone if there was a large billboard behind the geiser advertising pecan roll at Stucky? I think most people would say when visiting a natural environment they prefer to see as little impact by previous visitors as possible. Looking at deep gouges in the floor or broken rocks does take away from the aesthetic of the visit. The pitty is "marks in the clay" are permenant,and much of that clay is stratified with minimal understanding of how this occurred, and what was occurring during that period for there to be different colors. The clay banks in Cow have been designated as having some beauty and there was outrage when they were damaged,but that clay on the surface may share the same characterisitics,but we just can't see it downward.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

You are correct Joe Public doesn't care about marks in the cave, and in fact Joe Public doesn't care about water quality until they are told that they can't drink the water out of their faucet. The thing is that the person that owns the cave or manages it does, a lot. They have requirement to protect the resource the best they can,and strongly concerned with cave damage. I applaud the original poster for taking an interest and having concern,because yes these marks can have an impact on our access. We have made it very easy for land owners/managers to assess the cave for damage with all the photos and Gopro videos being posted,matter of fact I know one manager that saves and archives these things.




Would we enjoy "old faithful" at Yellowstone if there was a large billboard behind the geiser advertising pecan roll at Stucky? I think most people would say when visiting a natural environment they prefer to see as little impact by previous visitors as possible. Looking at deep gouges in the floor or broken rocks does take away from the aesthetic of the visit. The pitty is "marks in the clay" are permenant,and much of that clay is stratified with minimal understanding of how this occurred, and what was occurring during that period for there to be different colors. The clay banks in Cow have been designated as having some beauty and there was outrage when they were damaged,but that clay on the surface may share the same characterisitics,but we just can't see it downward.

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Kelly,

Not sure if you saw other threads that devil's advocate replied to, but it looks like someone made an account to troll. Good response, but it may be a waste of breath.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Kelly,

Not sure if you saw other threads that devil's advocate replied to, but it looks like someone made an account to troll. Good response, but it may be a waste of breath.

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Yes I did notice that. Made 12 posts yesterday,and most were negative,but he also compared CDF to TMZ. If the account was seriously created to engage in cave diving discussion then they won't mind revealing their name versus a forum handle.

Looks like DA got pulled, but in response to his comments if marks in the clay really break our hearts? Yes. Check out 1:48 in the video from Chan Hol. The stupidity isn't limited to US caves. To be honest I would much rather see finger gouge marks than a huge arrow in the clay like in the video. At least with gouge marks there's a small chance that somebody had a major failure that led to the gouges. In this video whoever made that is just an ******.

PS don't judge the video quality too harsh. It's the videographers first attempt to use a gopro and edit video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB7KZ-9L71A

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Originally Posted by Kevin Leonhardt

The ironic thing is that the worst of the damage in Twin was caused by diver's earning their c-cards. Several years ago there was an instructor letting their students experience a real silt out by intentionally disturbing the bottom in that section of cave.

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We sort of did that in my class, doing lost line drills. But we did it in Telford, and everything we stirred up was blown out in about 10-15minutes. Just in time for the next victim.