Trashing the caves, do you not feel any shame?

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Originally Posted by TracyN

It's the 15 to 20 dive OW wonders who think that the next coolest class to take is cave diving and they find some crappy instructor to teach them. They barely know how to dive in OW and this makes me mad. I was a beginner once and although I had no real frog kick, it was some kind of hybrid thing that didn't silt anything up but it certainly didn't give me any propulsion. My instructor was a moron for not correcting it. Even so I never bounced off the cave floor nor put hand marks in the clay. I was very conscious almost paranoid about doing any damage to the cave and when accidental contact occurred to the side of a passage from a tank banging it I felt awful. It's disheartening to see huge gouges out of clay blanks and mud that don't need to be there. Most of the passages are huge and there is no need for anyone to be hugging the bottom. How it happens is poor trim and buoyancy. It's no wonder land owners don't want to admit squared away cave divers to their caves. They dont want them destroyed. Cave diving isn't a fad to be conqured it a journey of discovery into places very few humans will ever get to see. Unfortunately they will never see what true pristine cave passage looks like.swesw

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Reinforces what I say. Cave conservation needs to be a key part of the training not a 10 minutes lecture and needs to be included in each dive. For example I passed a class and the students had their hand in the bottom silt and their instructor. I happened to hear the debrief and nothing mentioned about this being bad and how to correct it. We have to take responsibility too. If we are going through a cave and are touching the bottom,banging the walls etc, leave, not a good day or your skill may not match the passage diffiuculty.

I can look at the damage and do what I can but, we need owners permission (parks department?) and it needs to be documented with before/after and periodically in the months after. Also I am one person and not the solution for vandelism, poor conservation and skill awareness.

What is cave conservation?

I hate seeing the marks and damage, but just going leaves some impact. It can be minimized but not completely avoided. There's a thread about the Crypt where everybody says the caves comes down on you even if you are flawless. Only way to avoid things it to close down the sites and not going. We do need to get better and need better methods for training, educations, and self policing. It's still going to happen, but we can slow it down.

What is cave conservation? I think some marks in the silt misses the mark on conservation. To me it is something bigger. We have a lot of resources, but no direction for channeling them and making a bigger difference for our springs and our sport.

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Originally Posted by Ben M

What is cave conservation?

I hate seeing the marks and damage, but just going leaves some impact. It can be minimized but not completely avoided. There's a thread about the Crypt where everybody says the caves comes down on you even if you are flawless. Only way to avoid things it to close down the sites and not going. We do need to get better and need better methods for training, educations, and self policing. It's still going to happen, but we can slow it down.

What is cave conservation? I think some marks in the silt misses the mark on conservation. To me it is something bigger. We have a lot of resources, but no direction for channeling them and making a bigger difference for our springs and our sport.

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Ben you make some good points. Of course the only way you can avoid any damage is avoid any human contact,but there is a reasonable middle ground. Line in a cave is a path,and if we stick to the path then all attrition is limited to the path. Analogous to walking down a trail in a park,we enjoy the sites off the trail,but our contact is limited to the trail. Having an incidental fin contact and mark will happen,is unavoidable. I think the thing that bothers many is that we project ourselves as having a high level of conservation and received understanding in our cave class,but in reality no. Just like surveying used to be standard in a cave class,but no longer,cave conservation has become something to be breezed over,and not heard again. There has developed a lax attitude toward something future access can be determined by, for example the scooter trench at JB has become an acceptable landmark versus the eyesore that it is. You see people with limestone marks on the tanks laughing about "trashing the cave". I realize I am myopic on this subject. I have seen some very nice cave landmarks disappear over time eg. the cornflakes or insulation. The pity is I can only tell people about this great site because it is gone....

I'm thinking that runaway scooter trail in JB tops my list as the most outstanding diver inflicted damage I've ever seen.
That being said the amount of damage going up Hill 400 double lines ect is phenomenal, not to say it really got bad with the advent with the sidemount fad (Its a tool not a statement) but how can all the broken bits of rock strewn on the floor ever be repaired?

We are supposed to be all about risk management. Taking a scooter into a cave carries with it the risk of it running away and the risk of it getting out of control enough to cause damage no matter how good you are. And, we all (me included, but I am a wart on the a$$ of cave diving) take classes, buy scooters, and support the industry that 'encourages' it. I have NEVER seen a group of active cave divers protesting taking a scooter into a system. But, I have seen a lot of people moan about NOT being able to take one into certain systems.

Anyway, my point is that we seem to collectively support the risk and then complain about the consequences. I am not sure I get it. Do we think things won't happen? (This goes to the stay out if you want NO impact line of thought.) Deliberate vandals are one thing, extreme 'accidents' are another, where's the line in between?

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Originally Posted by scububa

Deliberate vandals are one thing, extreme 'accidents' are another, where's the line in between?

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There is an in between that we don't use,and sometimes not real good about understanding. For example in scootering that is referenced,do new scooter divers dial their scooter back while they are learning control versus warp factor 1? How often through delicate areas are we off the trigger and swimming? Are we frequently dialing the speed up or down to adjust to changing cave shape? Do we get off the scooter to check for buoyancy shifts to make sure the scooter isn't keeping us positively buoyant? These are errors I see commonly,and particularly worse in caves we define as ,"scooter caves",because there we expect to go wide open until the start-finish line. In JB people will run wide open,and we used to be off the trigger swimming or dialing back to a lower speed quite often in delicate areas. In swimming there is an in between area for extreme accidents versus vandalism- if you feel your self contacting the floor or ceiling,and can't get under control,then leave.

You all are dumb

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Originally Posted by Avs123

You all are dumb

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I can go along with that,but a solution to a serious problem is better.

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Originally Posted by Avs123

You all are dumb

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Based on your gallery pic one might be inclined to think you are defending yourself....

"serious problem" is being used in a relative fashion, Im thinking?

Bob