Some shops are training Open Water in sidemount. I think it has caught on rather well.
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Some shops are training Open Water in sidemount. I think it has caught on rather well.
Glad to hear that! One of the most frustrating things as a cave instructor is having someone sign up for a sidemount course at whatever cave level and then having to spend an extra day or two teaching them how to actually sidemount... :(
IMHO a well rounded cave diver should be able to dive both backmount and sidemount. I use and teach both and what configuration I use depends on the cave and my buddies...
Safe diving,
Rich
Interesting!!! Either they promote single backmount tank use in cave for intro or there is a typo on my card. I just know how I was trained and I believe training is more important than any card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Boy, I am sure glad I am not intro anymore! I went through this same crap before I finally got my full cave.
Well, yes and no. I think that the problem is with the certifying agencies that impose or just simply make up these standards mostly to cover their butts (avoid any liability). For the most part, instructors probably do what they consider best, but being human there is a lot of variability. I know there is a lot of "chest-thumping" here about the degradation of training, but I had an instructor that is on the board of the NACD that I thought was horrendous - not as a diver, but as an instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
The agencies themselves are a great part of this problem. I had a go-around with a previous NACD president and training director. Both told me different things, some of which completely contradicted their training manuals and each other. This was mostly about sidemount, intro, doubles, certificate expiration, etc. In the end i decided that I did not want an NACD card or to have anything to do with them whatsoever. I opted for the TDI intro card. Incidentally, my TDI intro card also states thirds with no configuration limitations (singles, doubles, etc.). What is funny is that I called TDI to clarify the thirds issue, I again got conflicting answers - some said it was only for training, others said for post-training. Card did say thirds - I may have heard that newer cards may specify sixths - don't know.
What I do know is that my cave training spanned several years (10 since I originally did cavern, which I later re-did). Finding the funds, available time, a decent instructor, scheduling, cave conditions (flooding), etc., is not easy and I even live in Florida. My intro training spanned almost 2 years and my full training was over a year. I am fairly conservative, mature, and tend to be somewhat apprehensive in situations I am not familiar with. As regards cave diving, I never exceeded the limits of my training but I certainly "exceeded" the limits associated with the card I held at the moment.
How do you expect someone that may have 6 - 10 dives in the cave zone to stay out of it? Sorry, not going to happen no matter what anyone claims. Thirds - the agencies state that at intro level you can do caves on thirds with a single but need to limit yourself to sixths in doubles. That means that one can take an LP130, cave fill it to almost 180 cu. ft. and penetrate the cave using up to 60 cu. ft. of gas - with no redundant gas supply - but with a pair or steel 72s, maybe slightly overfilled to 160 cu ft. total you can penetrate slightly less than half that (28 cu. ft. - 1/6 of 160) and have a redundant gas supply. This is not only stupid but is downright dangerous, but that is what the "standards" stipulate you must do to penetrate that far at the intro level. At full cave, I still don't typically do strict thirds but pad it by a couple oh hundred psi or more depending on conditions (vis, flow, etc.).
How about going off the mainline? Don't we tie into the main line doing/practicing lost buddy searches and are taught tie off somewhere to leave the line there in case they are not found. I certainly practiced doing this, sometimes at jump intersections. With the funding and time limits of taking cave instruction, one certainly needs to practice the skills needed to successfully pass. It is fairly unrealistic to expect that one can do this all and do it well in the limited time during instruction. Maybe that is why we get "crappy" divers - because all this stuff is done only with the instructor and then just minimally passing.
I think that NAUI may be the only ones that do this somewhat right. Train people to do realistic gas planning (thirds with caution), give them some tools to do simple navigation (2 jumps - should add a simple traverse to that). Get rid of the idiotic doubles time expiration and the stupid apprentice rating which again is only a cash cow for instructors that expires in a year anyway. This would give the intro divers some tools to work with and would probably instill at least some respect for operational limitations without which the reckless ones will really get in over their heads and training. As is stands, I would be surprised if even a quarter of intro divers follow their cert limitations.
Lots of luck trying to get some consensus whether SM is "doubles" or 2 independents singles. And yes, I believe training is FAR more important than the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeCountyDiver
I started my intro training in doubles and finished it in SM. The transition was almost seamless. I had trouble reaching my left valves in BM doubles due to a previous shoulder injury. The instructor "suggested" that I would have and easier time in SM. I showed up in an SM rig the next weekend (I did do a couple of pool sessions by myself with a video camera first) , and except for a few minor configuration and trim issues it was a breeze and I passed my intro. I suspect the ones that may have had trouble in SM would probably have had issues in BM doubles also. I guess you would have to make sure that the basic skills are there, no matter the configuration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
I disagree about "a well rounded cave diver" having to dive both BM (doubles that is) and SM. I dove BM doubles for over 2 years and within the first minute (or less) in SM I knew that I would never do it again - at least not the double LP108s I had. To me, anyway, SM is so superior in ALL ways (trim, balance, safety, etc.). The only time I may put something on my back again would be a CCR if I ever decide to do that. There is NOTHING (did I say NOTHING - well maybe BM may be required if you are carrying a billion stages in open water and NEED every square inch of your body for tanks) that can't be done in SM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Agree completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeCountyDiver
the 1/6 has nothing to do with the manifold. Nada, zilch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeCountyDiver
My TDI Intro card states "Penetration limited to 1/3 of single cylinder or 1/6 of doubles. Max depth 40M/130ft. No Deco. No Restrictions. Maintain single continuous guideline to exit."Quote:
Originally Posted by vicp
My card has absolutely no mention of 1/6ths..... When did you get certified???Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleC
"I disagree about "a well rounded cave diver" having to dive both BM (doubles that is) and SM. I dove BM doubles for over 2 years and within the first minute (or less) in SM I knew that I would never do it again - at least not the double LP108s I had. To me, anyway, SM is so superior in ALL ways (trim, balance, safety, etc.). The only time I may put something on my back again would be a CCR if I ever decide to do that. There is NOTHING (did I say NOTHING - well maybe BM may be required if you are carrying a billion stages in open water and NEED every square inch of your body for tanks) that can't be done in SM"
You don't "have" to dive a certain configuration, my point was that some caves are more suited to backmount, others for sidemount. Each discipline has it's pros and cons and it's uses. It's like stage, scooter. AN/DP, mix etc, just another tool to add to your arsenal. Flexibility is the key, IMHO... ;)
Safe diving,
Rich
I've been following this out of curiosity to see where It is leading, and I really had no intention of commenting BUT - I'm curious. I can see where some caves are more suitable to side mount. I get that, I dive several where that is the case. But I can't come up with a cave that I've ever dived where back mount is the more suitable configuration. What caves do you dive where back mount is better suited? Mind you, not preferable from a personal taste perspective, but better for the environment and why. I might be tempted to double up a couple of 85's if such a cave exists. ;)
Sent from behind a pint of Guinness.
Hart from the Black Lagoon is much better in the beginning due to fissure shaped rooms. It was in very good condition when there a majority of back mount divers diving this place,but now there are a lot of gouges. I can think of passages in places like Indian,Anderson,Telford and Cow,where backmounted doubles will cause less wear and tear on the cave due to narrow side walls,but high ceiling relief.. Many sidemounters will say they will turn sideways to get through these areas,but many have not really practiced and trimmed for this situation,so physical contact with either your hands or the tanks will frequently occur. I do agree with Rich's comment,that a well rounded cave diver can use both configurations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bil