Training Time Expirations on certificates: Too restrictive or Just Right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by allen

IMHO all certifications should be permanent. There is no reason why every cave diver has to be full cave. Some divers only want to make short runs into tourist caves. Some divers would be quite happy with just a single jump and have no desire to do multiple jumps or circuits. We don't ask all open water divers to become master SCUBA divers. Why should we ask all cave divers to be full cave?

---

I fully agree. And as to the "1 - too many divers would certify at Intro to cave, and just keep diving to greater levels (i.e., not staying within the limits of training)"...this logic is scary. Why, as an instructor, would you certify anyone at any level if you don't trust them to have the self-discipline to dive within their limitations? If I train an OW diver, I expect (and MAKE PERFECTLY CLEAR!) that I expect him to stay out of caves and deep water. Why should I suddenly distrust a student (and expire his cert) just because he's at a certain level of cave training?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MORGAN

You can practice cave diving skills in other places besides caves. All of our cave diving so far has been in Florida, and we live in Vermont. When Tracy and I were Intro divers preparing for further training, we would go to a local pond that has a very silty and oozy bottom, run a line a couple of feet off the bottom about 200 feet from a rock pile to a sunken log, and practice laying line, tying in reels, using arrows, doing jumps off our main line, etc. We practiced picking up and dropping deco bottles and stages, and we also dove in rivers to improve our skills in flow.

We still do "skills & drills" dives between cave diving trips. Then when we get to cave country we take it easy on our first few dives and scrape the rust off our technique before doing anything more ambitious. When we finished full cave (NSS-CDS, with Michael O'Leary) we had 40-some cave dives and probably an equal number of practice cave dives in OW.

Mike

---

Mike is right, practice cave skills in OW. Shallow is better, it forces you to have greater buoyancy control. The bigger question is, "Is there any OW in AZ"? :-D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FW

The bigger question is, "Is there any OW in AZ"? :-D

---

Just them little cement ponds in peoples' back yards.... :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

NACD Intro in Doubles expires after 12 months. You can pay for a single tank card before that year is over.

I assume the politics behind these sort of expirations are motivated by instructors looking to increase the number of students they certify. Regardless of the stated safety reasoning... "let's ban guns, for the kids."

Jax, just take apprentice. IMHO, each class was easier than the previous one. I find my skill improve the most when I'm pushed beyond what I thought I was capable of.

---

My plastic double cylinder intro cave card has no expiration on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

My plastic double cylinder intro cave card has no expiration on it.

---

You got certified to dive plastic double cylinders? WOOOO!! I wanna try that ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sskasser

You got certified to dive plastic double cylinders? WOOOO!! I wanna try that ;)

---

Oh no you don't I need to wear 90 pounds of lead and use a drop weight.

I talked to two people that switched to NAUI because NSS apprentice expires. Only in cave diving does a cert expire. This rushes individuals to complete full cave before it cost more (by having to re-cert). So now you have bunches of full cave divers only been in caves for two years. Your inviting what you have out there. And having doubles expire at intro is ridiculous. Now I have to go buy a single harness because some trip operator said my doubles expired?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

I talked to two people that switched to NAUI because NSS apprentice expires. Only in cave diving does a cert expire. This rushes individuals to complete full cave before it cost more (by having to re-cert). So now you have bunches of full cave divers only been in caves for two years. Your inviting what you have out there. And having doubles expire at intro is ridiculous. Now I have to go buy a single harness because some trip operator said my doubles expired?

---

The same argument could be said for the week long crash courses offered. I think 18 months is an acceptable time limit and the student should be fully aware of this when they start the course progression. I view it as college course work while working towards your degree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

My plastic double cylinder intro cave card has no expiration on it.

---

This card?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

Seems as if I wasn't given the correct information. They were CDS cards. Nothing to see here... move along.

---

:)

Quote:

---

I talked to two people that switched to NAUI because NSS apprentice expires.

---

I have heard of this too.

If I am interpreting the NAUI standards for Cave I correctly it "certifies" cave divers to the same level as the NSS-CDS does at the Apprentice level requiring two less training dives.

I can understand why this type training is appealing to some divers.