Indian is closed?

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Originally Posted by Jax

This is good news - they are open to learning!

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Is it good news? Indian is one of the best dives out there, too bad I haven't dived it since around 2001. Personally I could care less whether it is open or not, since it is only open for *some*. I'm sure the negotiations with the new leaseholders will continue to leave those of us diving CCR out in the cold. Anyone care to shed some light on that?

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Originally Posted by Benthic

While you're working on it, could you please explore the possibility of allowing CCR there and abolishing the guide system?

Brian

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Yes indeed Kelly...try to bring the new owners into the 21st century...

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Originally Posted by Benthic

While you're working on it, could you please explore the possibility of allowing CCR there and abolishing the guide system?

Brian

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Im not against CCR diving there but I would vote NO on open unguided dives. Its too nice too turn it into a Ginnie or Jackson Blue.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle

Im not against CCR diving there but I would vote NO on open unguided dives. Its too nice too turn it into a Ginnie or Jackson Blue.

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So you'd rather:

1. pay someone to hold your hand,

2. potentially dive with some unknown whackjob that someone else deemed "good enough" to be a guide,

and

3. give property owners the idea that training is not complete enough and we must "supervise" trained and certified divers?

Thanks, but no thanks.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle

Im not against CCR diving there but I would vote NO on open unguided dives. Its too nice too turn it into a Ginnie or Jackson Blue.

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I don't want to turn this into a guide v. no-guide argument--and Kelly and I have talked about that enough over the years that I'm fairly certain he knows my feelings on the issue.

But, for the record, I don't necessarily think that one should just throw open the door and risk Indian becoming Ginnie or Jackson. I would just like to see a process whereby qualified divers could eventually visit the system without having their hands held. If the diver in question needs to have certain qualifications and/or make a small number of dives with a guide before that happens, I have no issue with that. But a diver who holds the appropriate credentials should not be saddled with a chaperone forever.

Brian

None of the Guides I've been in there with were/are unknown wackjobs. They're friends. And I hope my $ helped keep Indian open to diving a little while longer. Worth it.

If cave damage wasn't as widespread as it is, I'd agree with you on point 3. But, the evidence seems to indicate otherwise, unfortunately. Indian is absolutely beautiful, and I would like to see it stay that way, even if I have to dive with the same friends every time I go.

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

So you'd rather:

1. pay someone to hold your hand,

2. potentially dive with some unknown whackjob that someone else deemed "good enough" to be a guide,

and

3. give property owners the idea that training is not complete enough and we must "supervise" trained and certified divers?

Thanks, but no thanks.

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I see enough people that are horrible at full cave that I have to say YES. I know who I would dive with and I know they aren't wack jobs. If more instructors would fail some people at upper levels I would agree with you. Whatever gets this to open im for. Its not public, its on private property. If we can win them over im all for it but in general I dont like the guided part either. Im on your side more than you know, but some access is better than No access.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle

If more instructors would fail some people at upper levels ....

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Amen

Brian, I completely agree!!!

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

None of the Guides I've been in there with were/are unknown wackjobs. They're friends. And I hope my $ helped keep Indian open to diving a little while longer. Worth it.

If cave damage wasn't as widespread as it is, I'd agree with you on point 3. But, the evidence seems to indicate otherwise, unfortunately. Indian is absolutely beautiful, and I would like to see it stay that way, even if I have to dive with the same friends every time I go.

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I'm not saying that the current guides are unknown whackjobs, I'm just saying that is a possible scenario. I have no issue at all with a minimum set of qualifications a la Emerald. I don't mind diving with friends, or paying for a dive site, but I am NOT paying a "buddy", to satisfy some ridiculous nanny state mentality. Nuh-uh, not happening.