Repairing Caves

I think a lot of the damage we see in the tourist caves in the clay floors repair themselves over time with the floods. Certainly this happens in several places in Peacock for example. It seems like every time I dive that cave, the floor looks different to me. I would think that more delicate sections of caves that don't receive significant flood water would be more appropriate for human cave repair, but again as Michael Angelo has already indicated, this can be very tricky business. I would be a little nervous about any one individual taking it upon themselves to decide when it would be appropriate to initiate the repairs or who should complete the repairs.

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

Trouble is if its not a sanctioned effort and is done in a wonton manner you can have more damage then when you start. Featuring joint compount down is a skill. If done right you don't need to sandpaper the wall down. Hardware stores sell alot of sandpaper for people that think they know what their doing. Now add the increased difficulty of doing it underwater in a cave. It sounds easier then it is. When we did the Cow Springs Restoration the first thing we had to figure out was how to rig me in place so I could work and not cause more damage. Without the rigging I would have had to hover in place for two hours at a time. It took me six hours. If the clay bank was on my studio work bench one hour tops but it wasn't. As another example take take the little old lady in Spain a few months ago who took it upon herself to restore her church's priceless Christ painting because she knew how the pros do it. She destroyed the artwork and now faces criminal charges. First off, we need to address the problem of why the damage exists in the first place, a better option is to develope the skills so you don't have the destruction in the first place. One of the problems we had the first few months after the Cow Springs restoration was divers swimming over the claybank to look at the repair and leaving fin marks. Common sense not being very common. I think restoration efforts to restore the damage we have done as a community is a great idea but it has to be a planned effort santioned by either one of the agencies (NFSA?), property owner, or state park.

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Fair enough and Kelly brings up good points as well, so what efforts are being organized? and how far along is this process? who is responsible? line keepers?

I see a LOT of complaints about people F**king up (while learning or not) and thats fine I have no problem with criticism, judgment, insults...whatever...the point is that it makes more sense to focus on solutions rather then pointing out something that every active cave diver sees ever time they dive.

Solutions make a lot more sense.

At the end of the day we're really talking about personal responsibility and that implies accountability and I don't know how you instill that in a student in a five day class......

Another issue is that how do you teach someone all of the necessary self rescue techniques without tossing someone around blind, screwing with buoyancy, etc.......blind exits, lost line drills, etc are going to cause dents in clay/mud.

I'm at Hugo's this very minute waiting for my Colossal Surf and Turf from the Gibson's menu, I didn't notice the Chicago location before this response.

Go dive orange grove and tell me a quick and dirty repair wouldn't look a hell of a lot better than the sorry state it's in.

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Originally Posted by Randy Thornton

I think a lot of the damage we see in the tourist caves in the clay floors repair themselves over time with the floods. Certainly this happens in several places in Peacock for example. It seems like every time I dive that cave, the floor looks different to me. I would think that more delicate sections of caves that don't receive significant flood water would be more appropriate for human cave repair, but again as Michael Angelo has already indicated, this can be very tricky business. I would be a little nervous about any one individual taking it upon themselves to decide when it would be appropriate to initiate the repairs or who should complete the repairs.

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What is too bad is we don't have the flooding like we used to. In the past you could count on the caves flooding every spring,and this influx of debris would "heal" the caves. Where most people are upset that the caves flood and they have lost access,I am very happy because this allows the healing process to occur,plus carry organic nutrients to troglobites.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Go dive orange grove and tell me a quick and dirty repair wouldn't look a hell of a lot better than the sorry state it's in.

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OG unfortunately doesn't get the violent rapid reversal that P1,P2,and P3 get,so bringing in organic material to fill in the floor doesn't happen as readily. Repairing this section would be a little more problematic since there is so much clay,and nothing to hide the repair attempt. I have seen OG under go a lot of change of the last 15 years-from a lot of loose silt in the main conduit to none at all. Where Peacock gets the designation of an entry level cave dive,the passage of OG to Challange deserves a more experienced cave diver due to the smaller nature.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/a...storation.html

One of the first things we can do is get rid of the terms "tourist cave" or "training cave". These terms are just excuses to make the lowering of our standards "OK". These terms did not exist or at least were not used with the frivolousness that they are used today when I did my first cave dives in 1997. Cave diving isn't a 5 day course its a lifetime of learning. Yes, everyone screws up and at some point you make a gouge or hand or fin print, some divers will cuss themselves and feel bad about it and some will go "oh well it's a tourist cave." Restoration will only treat a symptom. Training and experience and proper attitude treats the disease. If your in a "self rescue" situation please for the love of God save your life, but again if the amount of damage is from "self rescues" it is not a restoration issue it is a training and experience issue. I love the idea that we can now do underwater cave restoration, I would love to be involved with more restoration projects but no one wants to spend his time cleaning other peoples messes. I say this not as a soap box but as a plea, please please please don't make it so that the only way we can protect a spring is by keeping cave divers out of them. My Chicago address has been mentioned but also realize I have had a High Springs address for almost ten years now.

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

One of the first things we can do is get rid of the terms "tourist cave" or "training cave". These terms are just excuses to make the lowering of our standards "OK". These terms did not exist or at least were not used with the frivolousness that they are used today when I did my first cave dives in 1997. Cave diving isn't a 5 day course its a lifetime of learning. Yes, everyone screws up and at some point you make a gouge or hand or fin print, some divers will cuss themselves and feel bad about it and some will go "oh well it's a tourist cave." Restoration will only treat a symptom. Training and experience and proper attitude treats the disease..

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+1
Add sacrificial cave to that list of terminology that needs to go away. This term has almost cost us access to a couple caves.

Calling a cave a "tourist cave" doesn't lower standards. Instructors do that all by themselves.

We could solve the problem with instant hydraulic cement. If everyone took a big baggie of it with them on every cave dive, mixed it and sloped it into the holes in the floor, then it would fill in the hole and harden it so no one could put another print in it. Eventually, after several generations of cave divers, we could stucco the entire cave. Then, the artist could go in and start making little crayfish statues, a bust of Sheck Exley in every cave, colored cement to permanently install arrows into the floor, we could set allthread into the floor for line tie off, make fake stalagmites and stalactites, the possibilities are endless.