Negativity in Cave Diving Politics

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Originally Posted by kensuf

FWIW, I don't have a dog in this fight - I'm not an NACD instructor, and they weren't my students. But about a year ago I took to adding valve drills to every single dive my students conduct in order to develop muscle memory.

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I actually not only have them do this along with s drills for every dive, I tell them it is something they should do prior to every dive post certification as well. Do they, heck do I? No...but it plants the seed that they will every now and then post certification practice it.

I tell them that too Chris. I also make them go through the predive checklist any time I dive with them. And I try to practice what I preach, I go through the valve drill most dives.

The thing is if the instructor scubainchitown is talking about checked the little box and had them do a single valve drill, there would be no complaint. And I think that's misplaced.

Oliver, spot on.

Yes I can see where it would be prudent for an instructor to observe a student perform at least one proficient valve drill while maintaining trim and buoyancy. The "muscle memory" though should already be there. It is not a cave instructor's responsibility to create a technical diver. These are the skills that should already be ingrained when beginning overhead training. If they aren't, then a Intro to Tech or Fundies class would be a great route beforehand, depending on the diver. Nobody's perfect, but these are the type of skills one should already have. I remember doing more than one during my training, but overhead skills were the greater emphasis as that was the class which was being taught. What was recommended regarding valves specific to overhead was to check the left post on occasion during a dive, especially after passing through restrictions.

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Originally Posted by MikeT

These are the skills that should already be ingrained when beginning overhead training. If they aren't, then a Intro to Tech or Fundies class would be a great route beforehand, depending on the diver. Nobody's perfect, but these are the type of skills one should already have.

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This is so true and that is the reason why I am always surprised when I hear people talking about how tough their cave training was. If you had such a hard time in training, how tough would a real life situation be?

If you think your training was really difficult or you have to go back to your instructor because you have yet to master a certain skill or you have to "work on stage handling" you have no business in a cave or even doing ow deco dives. There, I said it.

IMHO cave diving is not for everyone, I don't even think diving in general is for everyone.
My trimix instructor told me that he tries to pressure people into quitting the course, because the course is never going to be as bad as a real life problem. So, if you cannot make it through his course, this kind of diving is not for you. I agree with this.
I also think you should have at least a few hundred dives to start deco or cave training. Unfortunately, I am under the impression that people start their advanced training way to early and with too little experience, and I thing it's gotten worse in the last 5 years or so.

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Originally Posted by bent

If you think your training was really difficult or you have to go back to your instructor because you have yet to master a certain skill or you have to "work on stage handling" you have no business in a cave or even doing ow deco dives. There, I said it.

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The toughest part of my training was with Chris, he made me circle the ballroom running line the entire time... 3 trips around the basin.... everything else we did was stuff I had already been practicing in the 3 years of Cavern diving.... still not great at running a line, but WAY better than before.

If you tell me I don't see you, expect me to not see you :) was probably the hardest part of the class :)

Sorry waldo, my post wasn't aimed at you, just a general statement.

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Originally Posted by MikeT

Yes I can see where it would be prudent for an instructor to observe a student perform at least one proficient valve drill while maintaining trim and buoyancy. The "muscle memory" though should already be there. It is not a cave instructor's responsibility to create a technical diver. These are the skills that should already be ingrained when beginning overhead training. If they aren't, then a Intro to Tech or Fundies class would be a great route beforehand, depending on the diver. Nobody's perfect, but these are the type of skills one should already have. I remember doing more than one during my training, but overhead skills were the greater emphasis as that was the class which was being taught. What was recommended regarding valves specific to overhead was to check the left post on occasion during a dive, especially after passing through restrictions.

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I disagree with you. Fundies or Intro to Tech is not part of the prereq's, so it should be treated as if the student doesn't have those skills.

I strongly feel that it should be a prereq.

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Originally Posted by bent

Sorry waldo, my post wasn't aimed at you, just a general statement.

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:) NP, was just making the point that Chris took my weakness and really made me work on it. We covered all the skills, but spent the most time on the one I was lacking in... or that is how I felt anyway.

Which personally I believe should be the role of an instructor in advanced training, you have to cover certain requirements per your agency, but spending time enhancing skills that are weakest for the student is just as important. Sure we did valve drills (in sidemount) but I was fairly attuned to that skill, he saw me run one line and was like yeah THIS we need to work on.

Tim

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

The problem I see is not so much muscle memory, but being able to reach the valves and turn them without ping-ponging in the cave.
A student who can't shut the valves down in a timely fashion cannot be in a cave. Someone who can't even reach them properly, and it is alarming how many people have issues with that, should not dive in a cave.
Holding trim and depth while manipulating them is important.
That is, i believe, why these drills are part of the class, to ensure that the student is able to manipulate the valves at the time of certification.
To me it is inexcusable that the were left out, supposing that did happen.
So I agree with Ken, it's not so much about the muscle memory but that theses students were give a card without making 100% sure they were able to handle the valves properly.

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I couldn't agree more. I know I'm in SM, so it's different, but muscle memory was a HUGE benefit to me when I had an o-ring blow in my first stage causing my second stage to free flow. I was solo and this literally happened while I was turning the dive. It's the exact "worse case" teaching scenario (except I was in JB when the flow was up). I rolled my eyes, turned the tank off, and proceeded out (feathering) as a total non-event. Muscle memory was the difference between it being obnoxious and it being stressful. Especially in cave diving, check boxes aren't enough.

Interest diversion here. Valve drills are IMHO performed at the safety stop following every dive. This after showing them beforehand and a few practice runs. You have at least 3-5 minutes don't waste it.

In fact at the end of every course with not enough gas to re-enter the cave, I have the students do the full gammit of skills in the open water basin, Lost Line , Lost Diver, Valve drills, deploy and re-stow your reels, cutting tools and lights, back up mask, OOA horizontal no-mask swim line follow (60 ft), helicopter turns, backwards swim, etc.

Only then do I shake their hand

Don't mind me just reading the thread