Training in Mexico

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12-08-2016 05:52 AM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiteHedded

I've seen terrible divers trained in both places. This is just silly

Couldn't agree more. Good and bad divers can be a function of many variables,but I think there is a certain amount of validation seeking- I got trained by X, or trained at X, hence I must be a good diver.
12-08-2016 06:20 AM
mdax

I thought we weren't supposed to talk about the swiss gal and the death in blue springs, violating arch sites or any instructor business. They've got money to collect, keep quiet.

I trained in Mexico and enjoyed it however this thread sounds like a bunch of wankers trying to one up each other on how manly and tough their cave training was...this is a recreational activity for self important, financially secure softies, stop trying to make it something it's not....or go join the military and show what a rough and tumble person you are where it matters.

I wouldn't dive with most of you.
12-08-2016 07:26 AM
OFG-1

Quote:

Originally Posted by rddvet

That's very true. Generalization isn't realistic and leads to bad things. I think if you took courses from the top 5% of instructors from either country you can't go wrong..

Could you please provide the names of the top 5%? I would hate to send anyone I knew to the wrong instructor.
12-09-2016 07:18 PM
Nitrogenius

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakatomi

I have certainly heard about this type of training and excessive confidence building exercises.
As a matter of fact it is so prevalent with some instructors in Europe that I inquired with the CDS and NACD before I started cave training in 2011.
The NACD training director didn't even bother to get back to me, the CDS training director basically said that valve manipulations in the overhead are prohibited but other confidence building drills are at the discretion of the instructor.

My advice is to always talk to the instructor about this prior to training and get his stance in writing.
To me safety is always top priority but it is obvious that for some instructors it certainly is not.
Here is what has been reported to me in type of drills in cave class:

Shutting down the students valves (in the cave)

Removing the students mask from behind

Tearing the long hose from the student while he is breathing it in an OOA lights out scenario

Shutting down students valves in blind mask drills

Fin removal, deliberate entanglement by the instructor

Purging the students reg while he is breathing it with a blacked out mask

Shutting down both valves of students at the same time

Placing obstacles like big rocks on top of a student to simulate getting stuck

Manipulation of system line arrows and students cookies to confuse the student on exit

Most of this is no secret and some is documented on YouTube.

I can see these drills going wrong and do not approve of any of this.
GUE needs to get a big recommendation for not allowing any of this!!

My reports are from Europe and Mexico. I've not heard of anyone pulling stuff like this in Florida yet.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Except for the rock part all of that (and more stuff) had been done in my training in Sardinia (Instructor has mexican cave training background though)
Actually that was all part of the Cavern course..
All of it had been done in line drills in the Open Water though.
A student would not see the overhead until that has been mastered
I saw a cavern the first time on the fith day of training or so.
In the overhaead though nothing has been manipulated anymore though so any issue would be real life cave induced.
having said that. blackouts and mask failures did occur in the cave as well.

I never felt that any of this was unsafe and for sure it was an educating challange.
as for pulling regs out of mouth, that in fact only occured in air sharing if you did not hold on to the hose..
essentially to prove the importance of holding your onto the hose..

in my sidemount cave class i took in mexico drills were similar..
12-10-2016 06:12 AM
kensuf

I find it depressing that one active thread on here is about the high quality of cave diving training in Mexico, and another thread is about a fatality in Mexico in which it appears that a cave instructor may have pulled reels when he was separated from a buddy.

In the middle of these shutting valves down, yanking masks off, pulling markers, "training drills" do Mexican cave instructors forget to tell their students that you NEVER pull reels when you're separated from your buddy?
12-10-2016 08:02 AM
oya

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensuf

In the middle of these shutting valves down, yanking masks off, pulling markers, "training drills" do Mexican cave instructors forget to tell their students that you NEVER pull reels when you're separated from your buddy?

They depend on the fact that everyone is trained to be able to find their way out of the cave in a no-lights, silt-out, with no mask, one fin, one empty tank, a broken bungee, and a cave-demon who is riding on your back and ripping the reg out of your mouth over and over again from memory.

Properly trained divers don't need reels and markers.
12-10-2016 10:34 AM
Nitrogenius

Interesting how polemic some can get when some folks question that America is not #1in something...

I think nobody ever questioned that also in mexico (as everywhere else in the world the quality of instruction seems to be rather deacreasing than increasing.
It had been made clear that the instructor in the incident had been a fairly new one, as well as it has been stated that there is good and bad intructors in any country!
12-10-2016 10:48 AM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

Interesting how polemic some can get when some folks question that America is not #1in something...

I think nobody ever questioned that also in mexico (as everywhere else in the world the quality of instruction seems to be rather deacreasing than increasing.
It had been made clear that the instructor in the incident had been a fairly new one, as well as it has been stated that there is good and bad intructors in any country!

It is not about America being #1. It is because the harassment listed in this thread was once done in the US, and we deemed to be incredibly dangerous, not to mention bordering on sadism. What is going to happen when a student panics when his mask is pulled off? Sure, he would have a problem if that happened by accident, but if he tries to bolt to the surface in a cave, it becomes another training accident. Any drills that might cause panic should be done in shallow open water, like a swimming pool.
12-10-2016 11:46 AM
Nitrogenius

Quote:

Originally Posted by FW

It is not about America being #1. It is because the harassment listed in this thread was once done in the US, and we deemed to be incredibly dangerous, not to mention bordering on sadism. What is going to happen when a student panics when his mask is pulled off? Sure, he would have a problem if that happened by accident, but if he tries to bolt to the surface in a cave, it becomes another training accident. Any drills that might cause panic should be done in shallow open water, like a swimming pool.

Ahh. come on forrest, the polemic in the reaction is cleary driven from miffed stances and not about the topic itself, otherwise we could just have a discussion without such polemics on the pros and cons of certain drills.
I am not sure how it is do ne in mexico progressing through ghcavern et al as that training has been done in Sardinia on my end.
I would assume it is different as the instructor on sardinia had been trained in mex..
Before anybody was geetting the overhead the stress level was thoroughly tested in shallow open water to extreme levels of escalating prblems.. i.e. entangling one in line, stripping the fin blow ng up the drysuit and shutting of a valve..
to see how one would deal with a shitload of issues all at once..
Only if you showed that you are able to maintain a clear haed and a useful problem solving aporoach you would be allowed to overhead .
In the overhead only isulated events were trained, some annonced some not.. overall surely expected to be far below the previously tested stress level.
Also I know that in Mex the caves that are used for training do have a lot of reathable cavities (unknown to student) soe someone could surface if a student would go tilt..
12-10-2016 05:17 PM
OFG-1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

I think nobody ever questioned that also in mexico (as everywhere else in the world the quality of instruction seems to be rather deacreasing than increasing.
.

I am not an instructor, haven't been in 35 years.

You know, this is the basis of a lot of misinformation, false news, and conspiracy theories. You, and the others promoting this, have absolutely no data to support it. None. It is anecdotal observations at the best, and a arrogant opinion at the worst.

It is obvious that the concept of international training standards put forth by certifying agencies is nonsense to you.If you want tougher standards, reach into your pocket and start your own agency, which is how GUE started.

Training accidents, as a percentage, have not increased in the 40 plus years I have been cave diving. Percentage wise, there are less accidents per 1000 cave dives than there was in the 70's. This is not a result of divers getting worse, training getting worse, or overall, instructors getting worse.

Why must the same group of folks beshit this idiocy on the rest of us ad nauesum with every accident?

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