When Things Go Wrong

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Originally Posted by Benderr

+1

aainslie:

I can imagine several things that could have caused an instructor to go for help, and, because everyone survived, it's hard to accuse him/her of making a poor decision on just that one element of the story. If I had been one of the students, I really wouldn't care, seeing as how I was alive and all. I might not choose that same instructor again, but that decision would be based more on what led up to the separation, than what the end result was.

Let's say that student #1 was freaking out, and rescue attempts resulted in dislodged masks/regs, etc. How long does the instructor wait with a rabid student in the water? If you have a student that's freaking beyond your ability to safely rescue him/her, wouldn't going for help be the next best option? Assume further that student #1 is between you and student #2, and a clay bank is involved. I can imagine it's not a good idea to do a blind search for a second student with a frenzied diver somewhere in a cloud of silt....

I'm not saying any of this happened, I'm just asking what YOU would do in that scenario and/or what circumstances would have to exist before you made the decision that seeking help was the best option?

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It's Andrew. My name appears clearly at the bottom of every post that I make.

A diver PRESENT is more useful than a diver ABSENT. It's extraordinarily rare that someone is sitting around outside geared up waiting to help. This can NEVER be part of the emergency plan. It worries me that a bunch of people are suggesting that this extraordinarily fortuitous set of circumstances proves that this instructor might have done the right thing. It's as bad as using your pension fund to buy a bunch of lottery tickets. Just because one idiot gets lucky does NOT mean it's a valid strategy.

Christ. We have limited gas supplies. Leaving the cave is NEVER better than doing your utmost IN the cave RIGHT THEN. The clock is always ticking. Actions RIGHT NOW are more useful than "going for help". Whatever the hell that means.

BTW, one of the best things you can do in a silt out is just get off the floor and wait. In all but the slowest flowing caves the siltout dissipates in a few minutes. If you're looking for other divers, switch your light out. There's so much that could have been done.

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Originally Posted by wingman

oh good grief, to borrow from andrew.

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Strictly speaking, that'd be from Schulz :)

If the instructor was not able to follow the students through a restriction, he would not be able to assist the students anyway. His options would be very limited at that point. Should he wait at the restriction and hope that the students return from the silted out passage or go for help?

In this particular instance, going for help proved to be a viable option. I do see merit to Andrew's point about staying to do all that you can with the gas that you have too, but if you can not pass a restriction to follow and help, then what good are you doing? The clock is always ticking away at our gas supplies.

Its been said that there is nothing but speculation here, and nothing to learn. I am learning a lot, and that is disregarding any of the speculation.

I'll be taking my apprentice and full classes April 2-6 so this incident hits close to home.

This is what I am learning:

Things can and do sometimes go wrong during training. I have always realized that, but it is clearer than ever now.

Do not agree to a dive plan that I do not fully understand.

My core skills must be 100 percent before I am ready to advance.

Do not assume that an instuctor can help me if things go wrong during a drill.

If things do go wrong do not panic. Use the skills I have practiced relentlessly.

Even during training, if I feel the need to call the dive, then I must do it at that very moment.

First and foremost: WAY TO GO EDD! :clapper


I wasn't there and don't know anything beyond what has been posted, but reading through this everyone is quick to jump on this nameless/faceless instructor for "leaving" his students in the cave. While I fully agree that should never happen intentionally- what if the instructor did not believe he was leaving his students. Cave is silted out, last time he saw his students they were on the exit side of him, he follows the line out fully expecting to catch up to the students- maybe by this point in the class has already noted that one of the students has a potential to panic. Gets out of the silt out and still doesn't see the students but thinks it is very possible that they bolted for the surface, maybe even sees a couple of divers on the surface as he gets to the exit. Surfaces thinking it is his students, but when he gets to the surface the students are not there. Sees Edd-asks for help....

Just a scenario that seems to make sense if you are willing to give the instructor involved the benefit of the doubt.

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Originally Posted by Polly

First and foremost: WAY TO GO EDD! :clapper


I wasn't there and don't know anything beyond what has been posted, but readiung through this everyone is quick to jump on this nameless/faceless instructor for "leaving" his students in the cave. While I fully agree that should never happen intentionally- what if the instructor did not believe he was leaving his students. Cave is silted out, last time he saw his students they were on the exit side of him, he follows the line out fully expecting to catch up to the students- maybe by this point in the class has already noted that one of the students has a potential to panic. Gets out of the silt out and still doesn't see the students but thinks it is very possible that they bolted for the surface, maybe even sees a couple of divers on the surface as he gets to the exit. Surfaces thinking it is his students, but when he gets to the surface the students are not there. Sees Edd-asks for help....

Just a scenario that seems to make sense if you are willing to give the instructor involved the benefit of the doubt.

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Go back and read post 4. We have facts there.

Kudos to Edd. I've eaten so much popcorn reading this thread that my diverticulitis is acting up....must stop.

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

If the instructor was not able to follow the students through a restriction, he would not be able to assist the students anyway. His options would be very limited at that point. Should he wait at the restriction and hope that the students return from the silted out passage or go for help?

In this particular instance, going for help proved to be a viable option. I do see merit to Andrew's point about staying to do all that you can with the gas that you have too, but if you can not pass a restriction to follow and help, then what good are you doing? The clock is always ticking away at our gas supplies.

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Hmm... You make an interesting point. This is such an inconceivable set of circumstances that it's hard to work through. I've never heard of an instructor taking a student to somewhere they can't fit. In this weird case, maybe I'm wrong and exiting does make sense.

Perhaps we need a new rule... Cave instructors must be smaller than their clients.

I still can't believe he got lost in a cave like JB. Just amazing.

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Originally Posted by rjack

So you know the instructor is the one who left first leaving 2 students in the cave? Or was the instructor one of the 2 divers remaining in the cave methodically looking for his lost student (who'd already exited) and the line while his 2nd student was panicking?

If you don't know that's fine but it seems like you do and you're 3200 miles closer than me...

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No, I don't know. But based on what I've read it seems there was an instructor in the cave who left his students behind. That alone is enough to place blame on the instructor.

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

If the instructor was not able to follow the students through a restriction, he would not be able to assist the students anyway. His options would be very limited at that point. Should he wait at the restriction and hope that the students return from the silted out passage or go for help?

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If this happened where I believe it did, if the instructor was familiar with the system better options were available. But that is based entirely on knowing the system well.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Hmm... You make an interesting point. This is such an inconceivable set of circumstances that it's hard to work through. I've never heard of an instructor taking a student to somewhere they can't fit. In this weird case, maybe I'm wrong and exiting does make sense.

Perhaps we need a new rule... Cave instructors must be smaller than their clients.

I still can't believe he got lost in a cave like JB. Just amazing.

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that's the word on the street. too big to fit where he sent the students

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

that's the word on the street. too big to fit where he sent the students

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That's not what I heard - too big to fit WHERE THE STUDENTS WENT, not where he told them to go.


Think about that, you tell your students to take the second jump to the left, but they take the first, through a restriction that you can't fit through. You flash your light to get their attention, but they have already turned the corner. What do you do?

Well, I would probably wait there for as long as I had the gas, but if I knew Edd was at the surface prepping for a dive (practically everybody at the pavilion knows what others' plans are) I would consider going and getting him.

Remember, I'm just playing devil's advocate here...