I stumbled across this on YouTube...

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Originally Posted by mdax

I don't believe the options are do nothing or put your hands on someone.
I was merely interrupting the macho fest to point out that it is not acceptable to put your hands on someone and that posturing online is silly. There are many non testosterone filled ways of changing someones behavior; James meeting for example is probably going to work far better in changing these folks behavior. They clearly have the means to pursue cave training and buy the gear, here's hoping he manages to get through to them. They seem to enjoy the outdoors and would probably love to explore caves safely.


Cave owners, park services and local cops would not endorse getting physical with someone for cave diving without appropriate training or equipment. I can't imagine anyone could get any of these parties to state otherwise. Getting in someones face and calling them names in some juvenile hate fest is not going to encourage ow divers to reconsider their actions, it'll probably encourage them to come back later in defiance. Getting physical with someone should not be taken lightly.
Verbal communication is very powerful and should be the first course of action. Notifying people charged with the authority to carry out law/policy enforcement should follow.

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I strongly agree. In a previous post on this same subject I referenced the first time I had hands on interaction with OW divers. It went south in a hurry mainly because of the son who felt his new temp intro to cave card he just was handed was proper training to lead his father on a cave dive past the lips at Ginnie. I do not encourage escalation of force against another except when the force is justified. Just as we used on the streets as police officers. I learned that day not to be hot headed. Of course under water when we came upon the two it was very difficult to not use force. I had to hold the son back as my partner took the dad towards the exit. He was in a complete panic and very low on air. His mask and reg were removed at some point by him and he would have died had we not acted. Once surfacing, the son became very verbal and threatened physical harm. The dad on the other hand was tankful and understanding. He was the one who calmed his own son down. The lesson I learned was the very first word the cave diver uses will make or break the situation and my partner did not use correct tone or wording. So I agree with you, words can generally deter the situation from becoming an accident but sometimes we must act without regards to ramifications. Threats and violence will never end well. But I think we all know this post is about just acting to crub the stupidity. As Kelly said. he spoke to the people at Cow knowing they trespassed and they were the ones that blew up. He reacted with a mention of a phone call and problem solved. They knew they were wrong and it is usually these people who resort to name calling and violence.

I have no doubt James is doing the right thing and I am certain the poster of the video has seen the light. She did take it down and agreed to meet him.

I think perhaps the defintion of physical is lost in translation. Physical being grabbing someone to get them out versus physical in striking them are two different things even though the penal definition of assault covers both, I do not see law enforcement charging someone for physically removing someone from a cave they were trespassing in or may end up dead in if there was no physical harm done.

See someone with a single AL80 and a snorkel going in to the overhead: Drag 'em out of the cave!
See someone with an Intro cert laying a jump: Drag 'em out of the cave!
See someone with no Advanced Nitox/Deco with a 20 minute obligation after repetitive dives at Little River: Drag 'em out of the cave! (oops)
See someone riding a bike with no helmet: Tackle them and slash their tires so they have to walk home!
See someone weaving in and out of traffic and they cut you off: Shoot 'em! ("your honor, I felt threatened and didn't want to back down!")

I'm responsible for my behavior, not yours.

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Originally Posted by JamesK

Yep, new sticker for my helmet coming soon!

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You need a light too. Does anyone make a flashing or rotating red light that's water proof to 240' or so?

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

You need a light too. Does anyone make a flashing or rotating red light that's water proof to 240' or so?

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Intova's have that irritating flash mode, you could mount one of those on each side & put red and blue gels on.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

You need a light too. Does anyone make a flashing or rotating red light that's water proof to 240' or so?

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Originally Posted by kotik

Intova's have that irritating flash mode, you could mount one of those on each side & put red and blue gels on.

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Yes! I will figure out a way to do this! LOL.

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Originally Posted by PsychDiver

See someone with no Advanced Nitox/Deco...

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I never took such a course. Please don't drag me out of a cave.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I never took such a course. Please don't drag me out of a cave.

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It'll be for your own good Russell. You'll have to just trust those of us with AN/DP cards.