When Things Go Wrong

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Originally Posted by kwinter

When it comes to accident analysis, it has to be based on facts, not assumptions or guesses. And the length of this thread proves that people aren't willing to wait for facts. And some are angry that facts are not available immediately. Patience is a lost art, probably fueled by the lack of facts that ever come out. But shouting at the rain doesn't do anything.

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The facts don't get released so we don't learn anything if we're not simply bringing up the "what-ifs".


In this specific case, there may have very well been two students lives put needlessly at risk because an instructor was training in an area he was not overly familiar with and that is a huge problem.

I would like to hear the other side of the story. If there isn't another side... fine. There's no sense in not sharing it to whomever wants to know the story as its been told to me via PM, where TOS isn't an issue.

I have talked to some people involved on Saturday who were witness and or involved in this rescue. There is NO question in my mind that Edd is the ONLY reason there was not at least one, quite possibly two fatalities that day.

Going into the cave in zero visibility to try and effect a rescue of two divers is extremely risky. The fact that Edd was able to locate and guide out these two divers is a testement to his skills, character and courage.

I am looking for additional witnesses to his actions that day as I would like to submit him for the Albert Pierce Medal for Heroism from NAUI.

the criteria for being awarded this is as follows.

if you were a witness or even the divers involved please consider contacting me so I can submit supportive statements. I will keep them in the fullest confidence, only submitting them for the purpose of the award committee.

Criteria
Any person is eligible who:
Successfully saved a life in an aquatics-related situation, and

Voluntarily exposed him/herself to grave personal risk of life, limb or continued health during the effort, and

Made a rescue effort clearly beyond the call of any explicit or implied duty. This is a key criterion that is intended to distinguish the actions needed for the award from those efforts normally expected and required of a NAUI Instructor in caring for students and divers in his or her vicinity, or for his or her personal students.
Nomination: by any NAUI member or by the rescued person involved

Yours in diving
Chris Richardson
EDGE/ HOG Dive Gear
NAUI 17055 Tech and Rec Course Director

Good for you, Chris!!! :clapper


As for the rest of you that are harping on the "don't discuss it, you weren't there", won't you please consider that people can learn from scenarios, too?

Not an instructor, not even a cave-diver at this point, but thinking of what-ifs puts a mindset on a person to behave appropriately in a stressful situation.

One thing I do know is that panic never works.

I am guessing - please correct me if I am wrong -- that WHATEVER caused the silt-out, the first thing I should do as a student would be immediately reach for the line (assuming I am within reach), and if not, drop, find a tie off, and begin a sweep for the line.

If that is true, at least one student would have come out, would s/he not? I certainly would NOT wait around for my instructor to find me . . . it seems wrong, in so many ways.

Isn't this self-reliance the first thing taught in Cavern? :smt102

Great, "Edd, one step forward"..
If he's so modest about his actions and away from crowd's "thank you, bless you", surely will not accept a ..medal.
Ah, by the way this is a "Main forum: Simple thread" not an Incident Analysis specific one.

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Originally Posted by roguediver

Facts? What's the fun in that?

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Why let the truth stand in the way of a good story?....I've seen that theme before....

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Originally Posted by whitecrowro

Please note that the two students are alive, the instructor is alive and Edd is alive, thus it might have been the perfect solution for the incident.

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Any plan that relies on there being a fully suited instructor nd recovery diver waiting at the entrance to help you out is seriously flawed.

LOL, you just described my commercial training aainslie

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Any plan that relies on there being a fully suited instructor nd recovery diver waiting at the entrance to help you out is seriously flawed.

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Unless you're training with them in the first place! :rollguy

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Originally Posted by Jax

Okay, non-cave-diver disclaimer . . . I do not understand this need to quickly place blame, especially on an instructor. Last time I looked, an instructor is NOT God, and therefore cannot control everthing . . . It sounds like the lost students were trained well, but one panicked.Now, help out a newb to understand. For some reason, there was a silt-out. I would SWAG that the instructor immediately did a lost buddy drill on a line from the mainline . . . not finding the students, he called for help. I'm not finding much wrong with that.One student was doing the right thing, with a lost line search. Kudos to him/her. The other panicked Not in the instructor's control.What do you think the instructor should have done? Stayed in until his air was low? I think calling for help was the very best thing, from my uneducated thoughts.

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One of the problems I'm having is, if this was an instructor, why did he leave his students? While I can say I will never risk my life to save a student from a stupid mistake made, if something were to happen I would stay until the last possible moment. I've been in silt outs with students, many planned, some not planned, and I've never felt a need to leave my students behind in the cave. But I also don't put my students into situations I don't think they can handle. There are likely a lot more facts to this story that we'll never know so a proper evaluation will never be done. I'm failing to see the purpose of this discussion. It's all speculation with nothing to learn from it.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I don't know who the instructor was, and know very few facts of this case, but if the student freaked out and did the complete opposite of what he was told to do, you can't blame the instructor.

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Based on the information presented so far, I would disagree.

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Originally Posted by Jax

So, if I understand correctly, the instructor should base his exit on time / gas, not on "I executed my search tasks without finding the students, so I need to call for reinforcements."?

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Correct. You'll learn that in a couple months.

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Originally Posted by kwinter

Those who have already decided without first-hand facts that
a) the incident involved students in a teaching situation
b) the instructor abandoned the students
c) the instructor did so without valid reason (medical, etc)
have already done their analysis. Facts will only confuse them, and their goal is not to further cave diving knowledge for safety, but only to blame someone and make sure s/he is ridiculed and punished. That is not accident analysis IMHO.

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You forgot the other fact that we don't know "first-hand" - that the instructor was lost.
Oh, let me add another - that he left with #### loads of gas.

I wait with bated breath to hear anything that contradicts our stuff that we don't know "first-hand".