Ok now back to the poll, one thing that can be said as more people vote, it can be seen more then half of everyone that voted is breaking the cont. guideline rule to OW.
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Ok now back to the poll, one thing that can be said as more people vote, it can be seen more then half of everyone that voted is breaking the cont. guideline rule to OW.
Since you're an American now, that'd be defense...... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Safe diving,
Rich
Not to be too much of a stickler on word choice, but if the poll had been phrased with that last sentence, I wouldn't have selected sometimes/sometimes on reels. I also suspect the poll numbers would shift. "Often" is not a way I'd describe not placing jumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
-Tom
Maybe it isn't the rule that needs addressing, but the placement of jumps that needs addressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I still contend that very popular jumps should be properly marked "T"s, not gaps. This is especially true of popular circuits.
Little river has "T"s at the Merry-go-round, and there have not been any problems there. Jackson blue has dozens of "T"s, and I don't know of any problems there either. Mexico has had "T" for years, and the only problem I know of was a place where they had left gaps, instead of "T"s.
I am not suggesting "T" every place there is a gap, just at the popular ones. There are some tunnels that are not safe enough for new divers, so those gaps should remain.
The bottom line is that if you have a continuous guideline to the exit, your chances of becoming lost are greatly reduced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Very true.
We talk about complacency as a contributor to many accidents.
The poll may be indicating a wider spread of complacency then anyone previously acknowledged.
I am as guilty as a lot of the responders.
Do I think the rule needs to be changed because so many people 'violate' it?
Absolutely not.
Maybe we should start another thread on how to deal with the 'complacency' that appears to be so prevalent.
there's an ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by Jay
the poll results are shocking
Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I have wondered for a while about putting in a "T" like that back at the pit in Cannonball.
After reading that the lines in Peacock didnt count in the poll, I voted that I always run a line. I did at Peacock before it was extended up the wall, but not now. We did run it at Ginnie, and also at JB. My life is worth the extra minute it takes to run it. Besides, whats wrong with a little more practice?
Jay,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
I'd really like to explore this. Sorry for picking on you. But how do you
a) Break a rule that
b) You absolutely believe in?
How do you handle this contradiction?
It seems to me that either one believes in a rule (and therefore never breaks it) or one doesn't (and therefore is willing to break it).
I would suggest that there are times when you just don't see the point. Ginnie on a Sunday with 6 lines going in (half of which are flapping in the breeze). The Hill 400 on your 20th swim down it.
In which case, the rule isn't absolute.
_____________________________________
Now onto my problem. the REAL complacency is when you begin to think that you can get away with this everywhere. You find yourself not running a reel on white-to-white. In new caves. At a multi-directional fork. Stuff like that. And suddenly youv'e crossed a line and are testing fate.
And one day find yourself lost.
So... is the secret to say ALWAYS run a reel, and then find yourself backsliding, or is it so say "OK, the following places don't seem too hurtful. But DO NOT GET COMPLACENT and make sure that you run a reel in situations a, b, c, etc"
I've formed such a set of rules for myself after a bad incident. White to white (and in particular, drop an arrow!). Low flow (again mainly for the arrow). High silt out probability. New (to me) cave. All these get a line.
I'm unapologetic about not running one on pretty much any jump off the gold line in Ginnie. Even after Bruce's death.
But THAT'S ME! And that's the problem. This is a PERSONAL rule, where a universal set of guidelines would be useful.
50% of us are cheating. And each of us has a different set of rules. That's scary.
There is one almost exception to my "always" - if there is an existing man-made structure that isn't a line but is adequate for tactile following (like a hose or a pipe) then I will consider it a "line" for the purposes of navigating that piece of cave and skip the additional line.
Rick
There are a lot of similarities between cave diving and flying. The federal aviation administration over the last decade has done a lot of work in the area that is being discussed here, in fact your poll is a question that would appear in their hazardous attitude inventory process. As a current flight instructor i have looked at a lot of that material in the aeronautical decision making and risk management areas. Much of what they have done is directly transferable into cave diving...just change pilot to cave diver, aircraft to equipment and gasses, and environement from atmosphere and meteorology to aquatic cave. In the FAA this is a part of the training process. Cave agencies that manage the instruction process and standards could learn a lot from what the faa has done in flight training. The FAA stuff was developed to reduce fatalities associated with pilot error those strategies and methods could be applied to reducing diver error as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie