Pull and glide vs ???

Ok, newbie question here.

In cave training, students are hammered with the idea of cave conservation and preservation. We are admonished for putting hands down, feet down, feet up on the ceiling, etc. Have been a dry caver from a young age, and a former employee of DEP, I take conservation of natural resources quite seriously.

But that leads to an interesting problem for me as a new cave diver. When is it ok to touch the cave. I remember struggling to try to get through Devils to the lips. Getting absolutely hammered because I didn't know the good line to take in, and I was running the reel. I remember doing Little River on the final day of class, and being told to use pull and glide through certain areas to make reasonable forward progress.

Clearly, silting is not a concern in these high flow areas but how does a diver, new to caving, make the deliniation as to when it's ok to pull and glide, and when it is not? Yes, I wil pose the question to my instructor, but many here are also intructors and many who are not have a wealth of experience and knowldege.

So what say you?

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Ok, newbie question here.

In cave training, students are hammered with the idea of cave conservation and preservation. We are admonished for putting hands down, feet down, feet up on the ceiling, etc. Have been a dry caver from a young age, and a former employee of DEP, I take conservation of natural resources quite seriously.

But that leads to an interesting problem for me as a new cave diver. When is it ok to touch the cave. I remember struggling to try to get through Devils to the lips. Getting absolutely hammered because I didn't know the good line to take in, and I was running the reel. I remember doing Little River on the final day of class, and being told to use pull and glide through certain areas to make reasonable forward progress.

Clearly, silting is not a concern in these high flow areas but how does a diver, new to caving, make the deliniation as to when it's ok to pull and glide, and when it is not? Yes, I wil pose the question to my instructor, but many here are also intructors and many who are not have a wealth of experience and knowldege.

So what say you?

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Good question that sometimes doesn't really have a rule of thumb. If you have to pull and pull,versus gilde then it may be more appropriate. There is one high flow system I dive that because of the amount of fragile goethite,I just suck it up and swim. Somewhere like Little River has harder limestone that isn't as brittle to hand contact where the cave can tolerate pull and pull.

I know a good place to start is 'slow down.'

Go so slow you think you are just wasting gas. Go so slow, its silly.

You will be amazed how much farther your gas will reach. It will keep your head clear. When you absolutely must touch the cave you have time to look for a hard rock that someone has already touched for a finger or two. Sure beats flailing for the next handhold, trying to keep pace with your team.

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Originally Posted by Dave Lizdas

I know a good place to start is 'slow down.'

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Yes! When I finally started to go slower, it was amazing how much the flow seemed to decrease in the caves. Also, slowing down will allow you to locate the "shadows" where you can stay out of much of the flow. Its all a learning process.

I've noticed that going slow is not the problem.

You feel like your swimming like hell & not moving.

So you grab hold of something to get your momentum going.

The thing I see is to know what your grabbing hold of & try to know the difference in the formations to know they are not fragile parts of the system & won't break off.

I've been in several High flow caves that you have to pull your self into & Pulled in the same way as I did the last time, but then one time, some little piece breaks off & your kicking your self for touching it.

So I'm wondering if maybe other diver's saw this as a good place to pull from & after time the continued stress on the same point caused it to crumble, but your still kicking yourself.

Like I said in high flow caves unless you have bionic legs you have to pull some where, but try to be careful what you pull from, in caves like Telford you can see the the rock in the floor of the cave is solid in most places & is much bigger under the floor, but grab hold of a point & a piece might come off (hence the kicking starts).

After reading what I've just written, what I'm trying to say is my opinion is try to pull from what you perceive is not a fragile point in the cave, but you never know, it could break off.


Mike M

Edit: After rereading what I have written I don't consider Telford a high flow cave, was just using the floor as a for instance.

Hey PerroneFord, thanks for asking... I had been wondering about that myself.

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Originally Posted by mike

I've noticed that going slow is not the problem.

You feel like your swimming like hell & not moving.

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That is the crux of the matter for me. It's not that I am trying to swim hell bent to go quickly. I feel like I am swimming my butt of and staying still. Swimming slowly, meams I am on my way out the door... backwards!

I suppose over the coming months, I'll be able to dive with more experienced divers and learn from them. When to go negative. When to pull and glide. How to tie off in high flow without geting pushed out of the cave, etc. I think these are critical skills that must be taught to maximize the experience here in Florida.

I'm glad to read that I wasn't the only one stumped about these things.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

use pull and glide through certain areas to make reasonable forward progress.
So what say you?

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Pull and glide is very efficient. I use it by preference whenever it seems appropriate.

In well traveled areas you will find established pull spots already in the cave from the dozens of divers in ahead of you. Using only well worn pull locations takes little effort to figure out where the best hand holds are, reduces wear and tear on the cave and reduces the chance that you will pull on a weak formation and rip off a piece of the cave or damage additional area.

I stick to the established handholds. If a good flood comes thru and dirtys up the cave and there are no freshly used handholds then I avoid pull and glide (yes I know where the handholds will eventually be worn but I don't want to contribute to the damage).

When I put my hand out for a pull my 3 middle fingers hook the handhold - kind of previewing the spot for a pull. Some clay formations look like well worn rocks, some rocks shift under light pressure, or you can feel a crunch as you start to apply pressure and you destroy delicate formations on the surface of the rock. :cry: Lightly grabbing and starting to apply steady pressure can allow you to abort a handhold hopefully before excessive damage is done.

The first 2 fingers are mostly for tactile testing of the handhold. Usually I only use the 1 finger to pull with - the leftmost of the 3 middle fingers (also the finger with glove protection). In many caves the rock is pretty rough and gripping with a whole hand and then sliding off chews the fingertips of your whole hand. Hooking, steady pull and firm pushoff with one finger reduces the chewed up fingertips, surface area of the rock being worn, etc.

I find careful, skillful scootering can produce less wear and tear on a cave then pull and glide. With good buoyancy skills and a light, maneuverable, underpowered scooter (like a mako) set on low power the scooter can provide direction and propulsion in places one would be afraid to contact the cave at all or even fin for fear of stirring up silt. I don't see many scooterers applying them in that fashion.

Slow swiming is usually the best alternative to pull and glide. Avoiding the center passage where the flow is highest, cutting to the inside of the turn, shadowing behind rocks that break the flow and just learning the cave passageway in general to find it's unique personality. Often there is a low flow path or alternative to many high flow passages.

Gary wrote:

"Slow swiming is usually the best alternative to pull and glide. Avoiding the center passage where the flow is highest, cutting to the inside of the turn, shadowing behind rocks that break the flow and just learning the cave passageway in general to find it's unique personality. Often there is a low flow path or alternative to many high flow passages."


This is good advice, I 've been trying to get better at reading the cave, but it just takes practice.

If I make the Florida Room in Little River on 1/3's, I know I read the cave pretty good (or was behind my buddy who read the cave good & broke the flow for me. :-D )

Mike M

Gary wrote:

"Slow swiming is usually the best alternative to pull and glide. Avoiding the center passage where the flow is highest, cutting to the inside of the turn, shadowing behind rocks that break the flow and just learning the cave passageway in general to find it's unique personality. Often there is a low flow path or alternative to many high flow passages."

One day I lay motionless just inside the door of Little River watching the fish, & how they use the 'flows' to their advantages. They would drop with ease into the most difficult part of the flow, & swim effortlessly past the cinder block & in towards the chimmney. I discovered how to use negative bouancy to drop from a high entrance into LR's main flow, & then turning somwhat sideways & using a half flutter kick & half frog kick to mimic the fishes tail fins. After learning to do this, I found Little River & many other sites with high flows easy to swim thru. Gary is absolutely right about his discoveries too, & we could learn volumns from his experiences-! One day soon, I'll be back into LR, but for now, it's save $$ $$ $$, until I can again afford the luxury of cave diving. I wish you well with your diving.

Jack E. 8)