Post-accident analysis informed data

I wonder what scintillating information has been revealed over the past decade that would be categorized as ?new? criteria in risk management for dive planning? That is to say from the resulting accident analysis conducted on those particular fatalities. I?m sure plenty of food for thought, but those conversations don?t require exact details; maybe a philosophical nudge in the right direction for dive training agencies to train a mindset rather.

I personally don?t believe there is much, if any, value with the release of details regarding COD. From a risk mitigation position, there are two categorically distinct events: lessons-learned and lessons-relearned, the latter of which accounts for the overwhelming majority of fatalities (I can think of only a single literal seismic event in which neither category would suffice.) Not to say that we have learned everything there is to learn, only that the constant raising of the alarms of urgency not only propagate fear and speculation (read as drama), but generally yields nothing tangible in return. Presuming that the accident investigatory team findings are null, what additional value could the macro details provide in future planning?

We're all human, humans make mistakes, many humans get lazy (myself included). Lesson "re-learned" has value by reinforcing good habits which can correct normalization of deviance/drift due to inherent human nature.

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Originally Posted by reefman24

I personally don?t believe there is much, if any, value with the release of details regarding COD.

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The value comes with the reinforcement of adhering to long established rules and traditions regarding how to cave dive safely. AA tends to prove the veracity of these "rules" is just as important today as they were 30-40 years ago.

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Originally Posted by reefman24

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I personally don?t believe there is much, if any, value with the release of details regarding COD.

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Easy solution. Dont read it. As Jim and Ken noted there is value and they?ve been around enough to know. And I agree with their thoughts.

Edit: as for new ideas I can guarantee you the ginnie death lef to alot of discussions about secondary p02 monitoring and 02 shutoffs as an example.


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Originally Posted by rddvet

Easy solution. Dont read it. As Jim and Ken noted there is value and they?ve been around enough to know. And I agree with their thoughts.

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Seconded. If you don't want to read an accident report... don't take part in reading them. Same as any other topic people get their underwear in a twist over. Coming from a public safety perspective, almost every officer-involved shooting, rescue gone bad, line of duty death, or injury is used as a training aid across all first responder services (especially if it was recorded on a body camera). Knowing what happened and why benefits the community at large in reinforcing the reasoning for the rules, and the potential consequences of not following them.

The secrecy surrounding the findings has always perplexed me, because anybody can get a copy of the death investigation report and see all of that information for a few bucks in processing fees from the sheriff's office that investigated it once the case is closed...

What relevance is there?

It has been said that the average cave diver lasts 3 years, and then we turn over a new set like human skin cells. Having newer cave divers involved in the understanding of accident analysis in a text is great,but seeing it unfold for real helps to reinforce the rules and reduce complacency. It suddenly goes from it can't happen to me, to this sport can be unforgiving when done wrong. One of my first accident analysis I read was Sheck Exley, and have seen many, many after that, and to this day I learn something from every accident. I have lost many friends and some of them dive buddies along the way,but each accident was unique, and this became personal, with me owing it to them to take the lesson they left me, and incorporate it into my learning. A cave diver never stops learning, ever, but once you feel like you know it all, then your risk for an accident has gone up. I have had a few CTJs, and with tail between my legs, learned I don't know what I don't know.

Well said Kelly


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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

The value comes with the reinforcement of adhering to long established rules and traditions regarding how to cave dive safely. AA tends to prove the veracity of these "rules" is just as important today as they were 30-40 years ago.

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I don’t think lack of AA is the problem. I think lack of common sense is the problem. I taught a student a few years ago that came from another new instructor. The student had never done a lights out air share drill. I asked, how is it possible to pass Intro to Cave never doing a lights out air share drill? He explained that doing that drill is unnecessary today because of better technology and the chances of 3 of your lights failing and 3 of your buddy’s lights failing is virtually impossible. The math is actually 720:1

Well, goober, we don’t do lights out air share drills because we think 6 lights are going to fail. Class: Who wants to tell goober why we do lights out air share drills, even with today’s bulb and battery technology.

AA is good. Common sense is gooder.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

What relevance is there?

It has been said that the average cave diver lasts 3 years, and then we turn over a new set like human skin cells. Having newer cave divers involved in the understanding of accident analysis in a text is great,but seeing it unfold for real helps to reinforce the rules and reduce complacency. It suddenly goes from it can't happen to me, to this sport can be unforgiving when done wrong. One of my first accident analysis I read was Sheck Exley, and have seen many, many after that, and to this day I learn something from every accident. I have lost many friends and some of them dive buddies along the way,but each accident was unique, and this became personal, with me owing it to them to take the lesson they left me, and incorporate it into my learning. A cave diver never stops learning, ever, but once you feel like you know it all, then your risk for an accident has gone up. I have had a few CTJs, and with tail between my legs, learned I don't know what I don't know.

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Reading this and thinking about the cycle of talent you mentioned, I wonder if that’s the reason we’re seeing the degradation that I mentioned above.

A few months ago, I saw a diver in BM doubles with all his hoses routed straight up out of his first stages. Unfortunately, I’ve never been great at keeping my mouth shut, and I said, “dude, I don’t know who taught you to run your hoses like that, but you need to get your money back.” He said, “oh, this is my cave instructor right here” his dive buddy. I hadn’t noticed the instructor’s hoses were exactly the same way. The instructor said, “why, what’s wrong with them?”

Class: Why don’t we route hoses straight up out of our first stages?

Smh

Trick questions and I ain't fallin fer em