Cookie vs. Arrow vs. REM

I really do not understand why we do not all switch to REMs.

I have never had a love affair with cookies and have never even had one. I always (and still do) felt that if I needed to put any kind of marker on a line that it should also be directional for me. Cookies completely lose this if there is not a second line (e.g. jump line in play).

Arrows used for this same purpose can lead to a confusing situation since my direction of exit may very well not be towards the nearest exit. I believe that this exact issue has caused some fatalities in the past.

REMs are non directional markers that will not cause confusion. They can also be used as directional markers for the user only. I was first introduced to them a few years ago in Mexico and had to buy them instantly. I have not used anything else since.

I think arrows should still be used as permanent markers. and REMs for everything else.

OK, maybe the occasional clothespin for scootering in big passages would still be needed, but at lease use ones that have a "vise grip" tension.

I'm pretty sure this is a mistake to ask...but hell, why do you need to mark direction that is both 1) in opposition to arrows in the area, and 2) not at a jump where its position relative to the jump is your indication of direction?

Asking honestly, not trying to be snarky. I'm hoping very much that this thread will be informative and not an off-topic nonsense circus like the active jump-thread on SB...

Also, with some experimenting in and out of the water, I find it takes some work to knock a clothespin off the line, more likely if someone were wrestling with the line while entangled than a few poorly placed kicks.

YMMV, of course.

And an REM looks like what?

WJH

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

... I always (and still do) felt that if I needed to put any kind of marker on a line that it should also be directional for me. Cookies completely lose this if there is not a second line (e.g. jump line in play)...

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Asking from a limited experience point of view, I'm trying to think of scenarios where this would apply, the only one I can think of is a long stretch of line with no markers, where you(I would too) would want to place a directional marker so that you wouldn't have to swim for a long distance before finding the first clue of which direction is which. Losing vis, becoming disoriented and lose the line could land you in a situation like that.
What other scenarios would require an installation of marker where no other reference point is present?

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Also, with some experimenting in and out of the water, I find it takes some work to knock a clothespin off the line, more likely if someone were wrestling with the line while entangled than a few poorly placed kicks.

YMMV, of course.

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It is extremely easy to knock off a double ender from a spool/primary reel, does not take much of a impossible position for it to happen.
We don't use carabiners in cave diving, but put one on a D-ring and play with it, you'll see how easy it is to knock it off of it too, just to illustrate, so, I'd believe a cloths pin can be knock off quite easy too.

WJH, REM=reference exit market. Think a cave arrow, but instead of an arrow it's squared off. This doesn't technically "point" anywhere, but it has one side that is longer than the other

Edit: picture found
http://www.utdscubadiving.com/upload...028eef283.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Pavão

... I'd believe a cloths pin can be knock off quite easy too.

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This was my thought as well. My instructor demonstrated on land that it takes a lot, and I followed up by trying similar efforts to thwack the pin free from a line underwater, and by the time I was hitting it hard enough that it might come off, I doubt a cookie could do better. To each their own, but I'm pretty comfortable with the clothespin.

I've encountered some wonky line intersections and I've yet to come across something that a cookie couldn't handle. In my mind, the markers are kind of secondary to mentally keeping track of which way I need to go at an intersection.

a lot of this was recently discussed here. http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ning-of-arrows

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Originally Posted by Aotus

I'm pretty sure this is a mistake to ask...but hell, why do you need to mark direction that is both 1) in opposition to arrows in the area, and 2) not at a jump where its position relative to the jump is your indication of direction?

Asking honestly, not trying to be snarky. I'm hoping very much that this thread will be informative and not an off-topic nonsense circus like the active jump-thread on SB...

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1 - At times I am exiting via an exit that is not the closest exit due to some extravagant traverse or circuit. Sounds strange but I have used 9 reels and still run out before I wanted to.
2 - Usually this is sufficient but Not always. Maybe I am the only one who has pulled the reel while exploring only to end up disoriented and not been sure whether to go left or right at my marker.

Basically it keeps my comfort level up so those damn cave ghosts do not creep up and ruin my dive. I try to learn from my incidents and not repeat them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pavão

Asking from a limited experience point of view, I'm trying to think of scenarios where this would apply, the only one I can think of is a long stretch of line with no markers, where you(I would too) would want to place a directional marker so that you wouldn't have to swim for a long distance before finding the first clue of which direction is which. Losing vis, becoming disoriented and lose the line could land you in a situation like that.
What other scenarios would require an installation of marker where no other reference point is present?


It is extremely easy to knock off a double ender from a spool/primary reel, does not take much of a impossible position for it to happen.
We don't use carabiners in cave diving, but put one on a D-ring and play with it, you'll see how easy it is to knock it off of it too, just to illustrate, so, I'd believe a cloths pin can be knock off quite easy too.

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a low vis issue can be a good time for extra direction due to the slow progress. A sudden lost buddy search is anther time. I like direction markers