What is our community motto now?

Got an interesting conundrum, after talking with a couple of dive buddy last night (while setting up for a dive) after one of them related a 1 hour presentation on fossils and fossil collection from the NACD convention. My buddy related that it is legal to take sea creature fossils without a license, except in state parks.

My practice for Jackson Blue has been to move intact fossils that are on the bottom of the cave in the main tunnel near fin/scooter/damage marks up onto nearby silt banks (or other observable protected places) in order to preserve them for future viewing. I have noticed that most of them disappear from the cave soon there after. The alternative appears to be leaving them on the floor, but on dives after having seen intact fossils (sea urchins, sand dollars,…) I find that they have been destroyed by impacts. I have always enjoyed just floating and looking at these fossils, but these 1000 year old treasures are being destroyed weekly.

I have always held to the motto of “Take only picture, leave only bubbles”, but it appears that as JB (and other systems) get more popular the motto is shifting to who can get what first, and ignore conservation to achieve increasing penetration distances.

I took a sea urchin fossil out last night to ensure that I would write this post… It continues to bother me.

How do others feel about the subject? Does our community still hold to its original motto? What will there be for us to see in the caves of tomorrow? Should we go back to hiding the locations of caves and restricting access?

Keith

The last time I was in the Trash Room at JB I saw a very neat perfume bottle. Obviously, this would be considered a specimen, given the location.

Still, the caver's mantra of "always take at least one piece of trash out of the cave with you" kept going through my mind ...

No, I didn't.

Russell

I know we've all heard this many times before ..... about lots of systems......but,

You should have seen what Jackson Blue was like over 20 years ago - Really.....you wouldn't believe it ....

I'm sure there are some others on this list that did and can confirm

Even just a couple of years ago there was a huge difference from what we are seeing today. Kieth's post makes me think first about the sabertooth tiger tooth that was once imbedded in the rock, in a spot that would have been quite difficult to break off due to accidental contact. We are starting to see scooter tracks back beyond the trash room now, an area that stayed pristine for years. I sort of like the motto that many dry cavers are beginning to adopt: leave nothing but CO2, take nothing but pictures and memories, kill nothing but those who destroy our caves. Yes, it is intended as a joke but it does express the frustration that those who enjoy what the caves used to look like are now experiencing. For the record, I also do not beleive it is proper to raid a wreck for its artifacts such as portholes and what have you. Leave it there for future divers to enjoy.

I did not attend the cave diving convention last weekend, but I got the impression from my buddy that the taking of cave fossil is now acceptable?

DeWayne, what was your impression from the presentation (I assume you went)?

Keith

PS: the changes in the JB cavern from all the artifact collectors over the
last year and a half is devestating; Seeing them at work with their silt
clouds and single tank setups makes me wonder how they survive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kgault

I did not attend the cave diving convention last weekend, but I got the impression from my buddy that the taking of cave fossil is now acceptable?

DeWayne, what was your impression from the presentation (I assume you went)?

Keith

PS: the changes in the JB cavern from all the artifact collectors over the
last year and a half is devestating; Seeing them at work with their silt
clouds and single tank setups makes me wonder how they survive.

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I went Kieth, but did not get to listen to any of the presentations as I was helping with the CDF booth. I recall that FL and AL both have (or at least they used to have) laws on the book that make it illegal to remove certain artifacts such as arrowheads from their resting spot. I have never seen this enforced though, but I have mentioned its existence to more than one of the ow types dredging the entrance at JB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kgault

I did not attend the cave diving convention last weekend, but I got the impression from my buddy that the taking of cave fossil is now acceptable?

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The repsentation was not about taking things. Rather understanding what you are seeing. Much of this is discussed in Florida Karst formation (Olgiocene, etc...). Each formation holds different species (some are part of the formation). The presentation was great for knowledge (just like Bulletin 31). However, never did the presenter say "Hey go take stuff".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

The repsentation was not about taking things. Rather understanding what you are seeing. Much of this is discussed in Florida Karst formation (Olgiocene, etc...). Each formation holds different species (some are part of the formation). The presentation was great for knowledge (just like Bulletin 31). However, never did the presenter say "Hey go take stuff".

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Good to know it was more conservation based, the highlights I got was it was a good presentation, with a conversational emphasis on "X is legal without a license with an exception, Y requires a license and here is where to get one, and Z is illegal". It could have been our mental slant due to discussing the Artifact hunters who frequent the cave we were diving that night.

Keith