Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 62
  1. #51
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    St Pete, Fl
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,428

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrogenius View Post
    Well as other post already implicate whether or not new scooters on the serious side do in fact offer more safety is definitely debatable and depends a lot on the stance.


    Simplicity of design does often directly correlate with safety.
    Most of the "new safety upgrades" needed to be implemented to make the new scooters facilitating new technology (which mainly were bringing convenience rather than safety - Lithium based batteries, electronics regulating power output etc. etc.) as safe as the less convenient older models..


    I personally would not consider my new scooters safer as for instance a UV or a Gavin.. But for sure I love and prefer them for their convenience in use especially on land..
    Very long rides with long straight shots were even more convenient on longer body scooters like the standard Gavin for being much more steady (though a lot slower as well)..
    I sure do.

    The number 1 thing with the older design backend is the clutch/spring washer/ prop mechanism. All of that is eliminated with the Suex design.

    Line in prop? You were DONE before. Now? NBD spin the prop off and clear it.

    Stick in prop? Better hope that washer stack screw held, cuz if it didnt, you were DONE. Now, the prop will back off but you can put it back on under water.

    The little pins would wear oblong holes in the yoke, the yoke would snap, the clutch would wear the plastic down so it would slip too easily, adjusting the clutch required mix and match spring washers hoping to get the right order.

    Its WAY better and way more reliable now. From top to bottom.


  2. #52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    I sure do.

    The number 1 thing with the older design backend is the clutch/spring washer/ prop mechanism. All of that is eliminated with the Suex design.

    Line in prop? You were DONE before. Now? NBD spin the prop off and clear it.

    Stick in prop? Better hope that washer stack screw held, cuz if it didnt, you were DONE. Now, the prop will back off but you can put it back on under water.

    The little pins would wear oblong holes in the yoke, the yoke would snap, the clutch would wear the plastic down so it would slip too easily, adjusting the clutch required mix and match spring washers hoping to get the right order.

    Its WAY better and way more reliable now. From top to bottom.
    Yep and I don't have a Suex. Similar to the suex, the genesis backend is far superior to any of the gavin/ss/diveX/mako backends. Line clearing, no hubs to break, no blade pin wear etc


  3. #53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ddunlop View Post
    I have a new Suex XJ-37 and had it die on me in the cave a few months ago, around 1,250 feet back. The prop-bypass safety feature also did not work. Luckily I still had considerable amounts of air and my buddy was able to tow me out.

    The scooter was fully charged, and I had been scootering on it for about 8 months before this incident, never a problem. It was even working fine going into the cave on this particular dive, but I stopped briefly to clip off a stage at 1250 and then when I tried to go again, I found myself dead in the water. I was off the trigger for maybe 15 seconds.

    I will say Suex was very prompt in diagnosing and fixing the problem and basically rebuilt my scooter with all new components for $100. Granted my scooter was still under warranty.

    I still love the scooter, but definitely look at it in a different light now. I certainly don't think the by-pass is going to provide any sort of safety net if something goes wrong.
    Huge thanks to Derek for stopping in the shop today and clarifying the comments:
    1. The Suex XJ37 was used and purchased from a former dealer in South Florida
    2. The failure was caused by a damaged battery-motor cable that short circuited
    3. The damaged cable was caused by not installing the freshwater spacer underneath the battery and in turn the battery crushed the battery-motor cable bulkhead
    4. The former dealer in South Florida did not include the freshwater spacer when he sold the used unit
    5. We replaced the damaged cable at NC, checked out the unit, cleaned the seals and EE sold Derek the correct spacer for install

    The Suex bypass system only "bypasses" a failed motor board. There is no battery "bypass" as there is only 1 battery installed in all Suex units. Proper gas management planning and planning for failures, towing a spare(s) for long range, etc remain key to safety. Also fully understanding the features in your DPV including correct assembly is important, particularly with the new battery designs. The former dealer selling a used unit should have spent time with Derek to walk him through the features and configuration or at a minimum provided a manual. We walked Derek through the assembly today and communicated that we are a resource going forward should he have any questions or service needs. The same can be said about Jon at CC and Kyle at EE. To get the most out of new diving equipment, whether that might be lights, batteries, rebreathers or dpvs requires taking time to understand the differences including maintenance. Do you need a class for every improvement: NO. But if your baseline is a 1980's Tekna and an SLA-Sealed Beam (Straatsma) light then maybe at least spend a few minutes with the shop staff/seller to understand what you are about to buy/use and how to resolve basic failures or problems. For the recreational only crowd with a full brain and looking to keep it simple, we have a garage full of SLA Gavin units looking to move so PM offlist.


  4. #54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rddvet View Post
    He asked what safety or tech improvements would make a newer scooter safer than a very old scooter technology. A simple google search would answer that question. Sure those scooters can be used. But when it comes to safety, there are simply more safety upgrades in modern scooters such as a suex.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Correct, but this is the age old debate and covers just about everything: seatbelts, power windows in cars, bottom timers vs computers, rebreathers, etc.
    "A matter of stance" depends where you are standing. If you are standing in the 1990's then your 110lb SLA unit with a Tekna backend might be just enough for you. For the time that is what was available and we used a lot of them with all the risks. But with respect to various design improvements in DPV units there is clearly a safety advantage (particularly in overhead) in:
    1. Being able to remove a fouled propeller, re-install and continue the dive or exit using the DPV (in the past you were done)
    2. Being able to reset a proper propeller clutch and continue the dive or exit using the DPV (in the past you were likely to strip the clutch or spin off the prop and you were done)
    3. Being able to monitor the battery during the dive using an external battery gauge. (in the past you charged, burntested, charged and hoped for the best)
    4. Using properly designed, tested and certified lithium batteries. The reserve power is a huge safety factor but can also put divers way out of bounds if taken the other direction.
    5. Having a properly designed ON/OFF kill switch. (in the past you pinned the trigger with some hitch pin and hoped the tow cord did not wrap around the magnet or the relay failed ON)
    6. Having a properly designed trigger with no cables coming off on every dive

    A byproduct of most newer designs is convenience with lighter and more compact models but reliability and features built-in to enhance safety and diveability are more significant.
    Also worth pointing out that with Suex, these features are going on 10-15 years so I would hardly call them gimmicky, new technology. Seeing OFG-1 diving or driving are both scary so pull off the road or swim to the side.


  5. #55

    Default

    rjack, how does the clutch work on the genesis?


  6. #56
    Administrator Forum Admin
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    23,303

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cmck1 View Post
    rjack, how does the clutch work on the genesis?
    IIRC it is magnetic.

    Forrest Wilson (with 2 Rs)
    Any opinions are personal.
    Sump Divers

  7. #57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cmck1 View Post
    rjack, how does the clutch work on the genesis?
    Its a magnetic clutch through the wall of the aluminum tail cone. If you shove your hand into the prop or get a stick stuck in there, the magnet on the motor will spin out and break contact with the prop magnet. I don't know the strength of those magnets but they take some serious force to pull apart. The prop and its magnet can be removed out the backend by hand to clear a line though.

    edit: to be clear its a brushless motor, the magnets are specific for the clutch


  8. #58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    I sure do.

    The number 1 thing with the older design backend is the clutch/spring washer/ prop mechanism. All of that is eliminated with the Suex design.

    Line in prop? You were DONE before. Now? NBD spin the prop off and clear it.

    Stick in prop? Better hope that washer stack screw held, cuz if it didnt, you were DONE. Now, the prop will back off but you can put it back on under water.

    The little pins would wear oblong holes in the yoke, the yoke would snap, the clutch would wear the plastic down so it would slip too easily, adjusting the clutch required mix and match spring washers hoping to get the right order.

    Its WAY better and way more reliable now. From top to bottom.
    good point about the backend.. that feature is in deed quite usefull..
    if it adds safety? well depends on the stance again..
    surely with line or stick, plants whatever in prop sure you were done..
    but due to that you were also more careful..
    As for line in prop, I dont think this should happen..
    but weeds and other plants outside the caves... sure now i do not worry too much and if too much gets in.. just unscrew the prop remove.. put on again and go on.. i think I got so used to it that I forgot about it


  9. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrogenius View Post
    As for line in prop, I dont think this should happen..
    I will be sure to contact you the next time loose line is waving around in high flow and low visibility explorations! You can secure it before we arrive. Thanks again


  10. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rjack View Post
    I will be sure to contact you the next time loose line is waving around in high flow and low visibility explorations! You can secure it before we arrive. Thanks again
    Need my number ?



 

Similar Threads

  1. Failure to ask the right questions.
    By IRAP Administrator in forum Incident Reporting and Analysis Project (IRAP)
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 01-22-2017, 11:04 AM
  2. Fin failure
    By JerseyJersey in forum Incident Reporting and Analysis Project (IRAP)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 08-25-2012, 03:28 AM
  3. Frequency Counter
    By billyf in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-17-2010, 07:32 PM
  4. JB Scooter/ reg failure
    By akcaver in forum Dive Reports
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 09-08-2007, 06:56 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts