Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 88
  1. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mdax View Post
    That's got to be pretty unusual for a cave class, is it one specific instructor?
    I wonder.
    There are some weird things that are taught and the former students will argue that is the gospel. For example, someone is teaching students that having line arrows facing the direction of travel is okay even if it contradicts the line arrows that are there, because there is a difference between permanent and temporary line arrows. This comes up on SB frequently , and you explain why this is wrong, but they will defend that to their dying breath ( unfortunately literally). You have to question if your cave training taught you things that counter-intuitive, then you need to question all facets of your training, and mentorship becomes critical.

    "Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick

  2. #22
    Administrator Forum Admin
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    23,215

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop View Post
    I wonder.
    There are some weird things that are taught and the former students will argue that is the gospel. For example, someone is teaching students that having line arrows facing the direction of travel is okay even if it contradicts the line arrows that are there, because there is a difference between permanent and temporary line arrows. This comes up on SB frequently , and you explain why this is wrong, but they will defend that to their dying breath ( unfortunately literally). You have to question if your cave training taught you things that counter-intuitive, then you need to question all facets of your training, and mentorship becomes critical.
    That is why cookies were invented, to avoid that kind of confusion.

    Forrest Wilson (with 2 Rs)
    Any opinions are personal.
    Sump Divers

  3. #23

    Default

    I have been reading the thread and feel a little bit of history is needed along with apparent misconceptions as to what was intended and what is happening with instruction.
    The gold lines started at their historical point at the bottom of the shaft on the pothole side and at the restriction going into the peanut side. Sometime in the early 2000’s the new park manager Tom Brown at Peacock was also diver and was invited to learn to cave dive, he only made it thru cavern before he decided it wasn’t for him. “Unforeseen consequences of action” The ranger saw scrape marks on the ceiling and broken rocks on the floor, he did not see the beauty of caves we saw but the destruction of a natural resource. He saw lines running all over the place as his instructor (not me) told him to avoid the other lines. This prompted a meeting at Ichetucknee Springs State park for all interested parties. I was there to represent the NSSCDS, Larry Green was there for the NACD and many others were there as well. Tom wanted to use the Manatee Springs model and put a daily limit on the number of cave divers that can dive there. The carrying capacity at Peacock back then was the parking lot as it still is today, the park was open as long has the parking lots had space.
    As I listened to his concern we comprised on bringing the lines out to the entrance since open water diving was no longer allowed. This would cut down on the damage in the cavern zone since cave divers would not need to run lines and hunt for tie-offs and placements to avoid other lines. He accepted this as a solution to the traffic/damage issue in the cavern. The NACD (Larry Green) did not like this and re enforced their training standard for running a line to open water. We were able to cut back on the number of lines ran. The NSSCDS and IANTD standard was to a safe exit and this qualified.
    It was at the instructor’s discretion to have students run a line at Peacock entrance, but we tried to discourage it for full cave level since they should have a few dives there and familiarity with the entrance. It was never intended to be a way of not having students run reels. There are many places a student can get reel experience in Peacock that is more educational than running a line following another line. I encouraged instructors to use these other areas in Peacock for reel work rather than relying on the entrance as a way to check a box “Run a reel”.
    Teaching students to run a reel is also teaching them when to run it and where to start the line based on site conditions. Orange Grove is a good example of where you start the line depends on the time of year and site conditions. I do believe a student/team should run a reel on every dive but not always at the entrance. I hear way too many people say I had to do it in class so why shouldn’t students. If this was a case we should have them run a line from the entrance at Devil’s Ear back to the corn flakes. That’s where it started when I started cave diving in 1979.


  4. #24

    Default

    Thanks Lamar, that's some good reading...

    Safe diving,

    Rich

    Education, enjoyment and exploration.....
    http://divecaves.com
    https://www.facebook.com/divecaves

  5. #25

    Default

    I think the lines being extended to a safe exit is a good thing at Peacock though I'm not really sure they are at a safe exit at Ginnie for those not familiar with the cave. For the experienced cave diver familiar with the system under most conditions they probably suffice. However I believe that running a jump spool or even a safety spool performing a lost diver seach does not replace the skills developed by running the primary. There you have vertical depth change, the need to learn to locate and signal primary ties as opposed to wrapping on a line and going, and yes in most cases the ability to run a reel while avoiding others lines. This is invaluable. In training it's not just about whether it is safe or not to run the reel today. It's about the repetition and task loading. Much like an S drill in training is not just about making sure hoses are free and regulators work. It's about being able to perform a task, neutral, and task load while developing muscle memory.


  6. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lamar View Post
    I have been reading the thread and feel a little bit of history is needed along with apparent misconceptions as to what was intended and what is happening with instruction.
    The gold lines started at their historical point at the bottom of the shaft on the pothole side and at the restriction going into the peanut side. Sometime in the early 2000’s the new park manager Tom Brown at Peacock was also diver and was invited to learn to cave dive, he only made it thru cavern before he decided it wasn’t for him. “Unforeseen consequences of action” The ranger saw scrape marks on the ceiling and broken rocks on the floor, he did not see the beauty of caves we saw but the destruction of a natural resource. He saw lines running all over the place as his instructor (not me) told him to avoid the other lines. This prompted a meeting at Ichetucknee Springs State park for all interested parties. I was there to represent the NSSCDS, Larry Green was there for the NACD and many others were there as well. Tom wanted to use the Manatee Springs model and put a daily limit on the number of cave divers that can dive there. The carrying capacity at Peacock back then was the parking lot as it still is today, the park was open as long has the parking lots had space.
    As I listened to his concern we comprised on bringing the lines out to the entrance since open water diving was no longer allowed. This would cut down on the damage in the cavern zone since cave divers would not need to run lines and hunt for tie-offs and placements to avoid other lines. He accepted this as a solution to the traffic/damage issue in the cavern. The NACD (Larry Green) did not like this and re enforced their training standard for running a line to open water. We were able to cut back on the number of lines ran. The NSSCDS and IANTD standard was to a safe exit and this qualified.
    It was at the instructor’s discretion to have students run a line at Peacock entrance, but we tried to discourage it for full cave level since they should have a few dives there and familiarity with the entrance. It was never intended to be a way of not having students run reels. There are many places a student can get reel experience in Peacock that is more educational than running a line following another line. I encouraged instructors to use these other areas in Peacock for reel work rather than relying on the entrance as a way to check a box “Run a reel”.
    Teaching students to run a reel is also teaching them when to run it and where to start the line based on site conditions. Orange Grove is a good example of where you start the line depends on the time of year and site conditions. I do believe a student/team should run a reel on every dive but not always at the entrance. I hear way too many people say I had to do it in class so why shouldn’t students. If this was a case we should have them run a line from the entrance at Devil’s Ear back to the corn flakes. That’s where it started when I started cave diving in 1979.
    Thanks Lamar, your recollection is very good from that moment in time. One thing that has happened over time at Peacock is the previously defined areas for training and skill practice you mentioned that was established with the park management has been slowly forgotten with the advent of new agencies and new instructors. There are places that skills are being taught and students are entering with their instructors that by agreement were off limits.

    "Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick

  7. #27
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Neptune Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,114

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Why wouldn't you run a reel? Practice makes perfect and at least in my case I have to be able to do it at demonstration level. That's why I always use the Ear in training! Plus doing it with a scooter or two between your legs is always fun and exciting with students... I mean how are you going to do a lost line drill, if you can't run a reel or a spool?

    Safe diving,

    Rich
    Ditto.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "Men wanted for hazardous journey. Low wages, bitter cold, long hours of complete darkness. Safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in event of success."

    Earnest Shackleton

  8. #28

    Default

    During my full cave course with Jim Wyatt, there was never a question about running the reel as primary, jumps, etc. (Just like verifying what you're breathing.)


  9. #29

    Default



    I think this is why we had to practice.

    That moment after finishing Full Cave when you've pinned your shoulders in a passage, the wrong passage, while running the reel.

    Dominick Gheesling

    Hike your own hike.

  10. #30
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Neptune Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,114

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lamar View Post
    I have been reading the thread and feel a little bit of history is needed along with apparent misconceptions as to what was intended and what is happening with instruction.
    The gold lines started at their historical point at the bottom of the shaft on the pothole side and at the restriction going into the peanut side. Sometime in the early 2000?s the new park manager Tom Brown at Peacock was also diver and was invited to learn to cave dive, he only made it thru cavern before he decided it wasn?t for him. ?Unforeseen consequences of action? The ranger saw scrape marks on the ceiling and broken rocks on the floor, he did not see the beauty of caves we saw but the destruction of a natural resource. He saw lines running all over the place as his instructor (not me) told him to avoid the other lines. This prompted a meeting at Ichetucknee Springs State park for all interested parties. I was there to represent the NSSCDS, Larry Green was there for the NACD and many others were there as well. Tom wanted to use the Manatee Springs model and put a daily limit on the number of cave divers that can dive there. The carrying capacity at Peacock back then was the parking lot as it still is today, the park was open as long has the parking lots had space.
    As I listened to his concern we comprised on bringing the lines out to the entrance since open water diving was no longer allowed. This would cut down on the damage in the cavern zone since cave divers would not need to run lines and hunt for tie-offs and placements to avoid other lines. He accepted this as a solution to the traffic/damage issue in the cavern. The NACD (Larry Green) did not like this and re enforced their training standard for running a line to open water. We were able to cut back on the number of lines ran. The NSSCDS and IANTD standard was to a safe exit and this qualified.
    It was at the instructor?s discretion to have students run a line at Peacock entrance, but we tried to discourage it for full cave level since they should have a few dives there and familiarity with the entrance. It was never intended to be a way of not having students run reels. There are many places a student can get reel experience in Peacock that is more educational than running a line following another line. I encouraged instructors to use these other areas in Peacock for reel work rather than relying on the entrance as a way to check a box ?Run a reel?.
    Teaching students to run a reel is also teaching them when to run it and where to start the line based on site conditions. Orange Grove is a good example of where you start the line depends on the time of year and site conditions. I do believe a student/team should run a reel on every dive but not always at the entrance. I hear way too many people say I had to do it in class so why shouldn?t students. If this was a case we should have them run a line from the entrance at Devil?s Ear back to the corn flakes. That?s where it started when I started cave diving in 1979.
    Thanks for sharing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "Men wanted for hazardous journey. Low wages, bitter cold, long hours of complete darkness. Safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in event of success."

    Earnest Shackleton


 

Similar Threads

  1. Stage Class / How many dives/how long before taking class?
    By v101 in forum Cavern & Cave Diving Education & Training
    Replies: 136
    Last Post: 02-24-2015, 11:07 AM
  2. Cave Stage Class and Cave related Specialties
    By dabigcattt in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 70
    Last Post: 11-06-2014, 08:53 AM
  3. Cave 2 Class Report
    By scubainchicago in forum Cavern & Cave Diving Education & Training
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-23-2014, 10:03 PM
  4. My full cave class
    By stairman in forum Dive Reports
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-20-2006, 10:50 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts