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  1. #1

    Default Caves versus Mines from Frist Trip to Florida, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by nakatomi View Post
    The diver does not know the locations, is oblivious of all the specifics and has not been in caves so far?

    For me the first overhead dives were in mines too and if you ask me it's a different world.
    So I can sort of relate to the situation.

    As a result the diver can not be familiar with the type of environment, certainly not with the flow,the silt and clay in side passages.
    Also the concept of lines in Florida, navigation and such would be new to the individual as well.

    I would go further than the suggestion to get a guide and would recommend hiring an instructor for a day (or better even for two to three days).
    The price should be around the same, guiding or teaching, and in my humble opinion it would be money well spent.

    For someone familiar to cave diving, the type of caves etc, I would say a guide is optional.

    The big underground mines of Sweden are typically cave like in scope and line layout. I’d argue that they are more complex than most river caves, at least when it comes to navigation. Also the environment is harsh enough that tourist caves in Florida will seem benign as long as you stay within certification limits. A diver trained here doesn’t need to relearn how to cave dive but an environment orientation and advice on how to handle the flow is very useful. Though I would argue for a guide in the same way for someone who had trained in Mexico and tried cave diving with flow for the first time.


  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johan Isaksson View Post
    The big underground mines of Sweden are typically cave like in scope and line layout. I’d argue that they are more complex than most river caves, at least when it comes to navigation. Also the environment is harsh enough that tourist caves in Florida will seem benign as long as you stay within certification limits. A diver trained here doesn’t need to relearn how to cave dive but an environment orientation and advice on how to handle the flow is very useful. Though I would argue for a guide in the same way for someone who had trained in Mexico and tried cave diving with flow for the first time.
    I agree with Johan that the mines are demanding mostly in terms of the temperature that lies around 37 Fahrenheit in some mines. Complex navigation, yes but on C1 level I have not experienced that myself. For what its worth I have done some "real" cave diving as well in Molnar Janos where we dove from the old entrance to the big pool, tight and silty.

    Anyway I have never experienced a high flow overhead surrounding before so this will be new to me and I will need guidance.

    I am already planning for my C2 certificate so I will try to find a guide that is also an instructor. A trained instructor can identify my weak spots which I am sure are plenty and give feedback and tips for the coming course (possibly with just that person).

    I am super excited for the trip and appreciate all of your posts.


  3. #3
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rcn View Post
    For what its worth I have done some "real" cave diving as well in Molnar Janos where we dove from the old entrance to the big pool, tight and silty.
    So you actually have 2 or 3 cave dives. There is a reason why you can't get cave trained in mines with most agencies. In cave training you're also usually required to dive a number of different caves. But hey, sounds like you already know better.


  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by bent View Post
    So you actually have 2 or 3 cave dives. There is a reason why you can't get cave trained in mines with most agencies. In cave training you're also usually required to dive a number of different caves. But hey, sounds like you already know better.
    The question then is if it's a good reason. I personally do not think so. Some caves are not suitable or complex enough for proper cave training and the same goes for mines. Using it as a reason to infer that someone trained in mine diving is inferior however is just silly. Also I think your post is unnecessarily aggressive towards someone actively seeking advice and who've already said they're hiring a professional.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johan Isaksson View Post
    The question then is if it's a good reason.
    Yes, there is good reason. A cave is a different environment, obviously. Mines are man made tunnels for people to go through and often for vehicles to go through. Nakatomi already tried to explain. If you can't see or understand the difference, I don't know what to tell you.


  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by bent View Post
    Yes, there is good reason. A cave is a different environment, obviously. Mines are man made tunnels for people to go through and often for vehicles to go through. Nakatomi already tried to explain. If you can't see or understand the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
    What cave diving (or rather overhead diving) techniques cannot be practised well in a suitable mine? The main hazards remain the same as does the protocols and skills. Mines and caves are different environments sure, but the difference in various cave environments in different regions are, from a diving perspective, just as big. The only difference between a course in mine diving and one in cave diving will be the environment orientation where the hydrogeology part is replaced by environment specific dangers of the mine environment.


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johan Isaksson View Post
    What cave diving (or rather overhead diving) techniques cannot be practised well in a suitable mine?
    That argument is a red herring. You can practice all kinds of techiques in a pool or a duck pond too.

    A mine might be kind of like a cave, at best. Cave are not made so trucks or wagons can go trough. Again, If you can't see or understand the difference, I don't know what to tell you.

    I guess this is just about counting mine dives as cave dive to make the log book look better and/or safe money on training...


  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by bent View Post
    So you actually have 2 or 3 cave dives. There is a reason why you can't get cave trained in mines with most agencies. In cave training you're also usually required to dive a number of different caves. But hey, sounds like you already know better.
    In my four posts so far on this forum I have stated that I am new to this or need to hire a professional in all of them. I dont know if your conclusion originates from the language barrier or vivid imagination.

    Relax mate, I will not do anything stupid.


  9. #9

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    RCN cave divers just love to argue and tell others they are dumb. It's just the way we are


  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bent View Post
    That argument is a red herring. You can practice all kinds of techiques in a pool or a duck pond too.

    A mine might be kind of like a cave, at best. Cave are not made so trucks or wagons can go trough. Again, If you can't see or understand the difference, I don't know what to tell you.

    I guess this is just about counting mine dives as cave dive to make the log book look better and/or safe money on training...

    So basically what you're trying to convey is that mines are too big to learn something in? Apart from the fact that there is plenty to learn about cave diving outside sidemount tunnels it is normally considered wise to mainly teach in passages big enough to intervene in, should something occur. There is also some misunderstanding or ignorance on how mines are constructed and laid out. That or you may have a desperate need to be right on the internet.

    The mines in question alternate between large rooms and smaller tunnels. Depending on purpose these tunnels have large size variations, from ones built for vehicles or more commonly ore carts to ventilation shafts or bypasses made for personnel. To this you can add shafts which typically are either made for dumping ore down or with ladders for workers to travel from one level to another. Wooden constructions are also common to shore up weaker areas or to control ventilation. Many of the above things add restrictions that are by their nature single file or at times sidemount only. If you are making a bypass for people through granite you sure aren't making it bigger than necessary. A typical route I use when I teach mine diving has four restrictions that would require single-file or at least sandwiching when gas sharing within the first 150 meters. Size and complexity of systems should not be an issue either as the bigger underground mines span several kilometers on each level.

    How suitable a particular mine is to teaching varies wildly but the same applies to caves. Many cave courses are taught in places like Landenouse and Ressel which would hardly qualify if we require complexity and small tunnels.



 

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