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  1. #81

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    This concept is silly, just like having this conversation without naming names and talking about details.
    For instance, you're known to be somewhat emotionally volatile, to the point where you have done some pretty crazy things.
    I don't trust you or particularly want to interact, folk that behave like you do are usually best to avoid imo.

    Are you saying that we should be critical of a specific local instructor because he certified some folks that have died?
    Because that's exactly how I take your post, if I'm wrong, and I have been divorced so I am totally fine with being wrong, please correct.

    Cave diving is a big boy adult activity, instructors teach a skill and that's it, looking to them to mentor and guide adults after class is ridiculous.
    I know as instructors you feel some deeper connection, maybe feel responsible for some events, but if you didn't teach something totally incorrectly just get over yourself.
    You are just teaching a skill, like driving, you aren't becoming someones parent.
    Patting yourself on the back because you don't have a death shows nothing except your penchant for misguided correlations in life.

    Instructors can filter based on some behavior, maybe you'll catch some goofs, but most are on their best behavior during class and then do as they will after.
    It's just a fact, you aren't changing anyone during cave class nor are you particularly adept at psychological evaluation and behavior correction.
    If the skills were taught correctly, then it's the person and their choices, every single time.
    Personal responsibility is the answer. Not your spreadsheet.

    Did you see any critters in that cave? StygoBites.com

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdax View Post
    This concept is silly, just like having this conversation without naming names and talking about details.
    For instance, you're known to be somewhat emotionally volatile, to the point where you have done some pretty crazy things.
    I don't trust you or particularly want to interact, folk that behave like you do are usually best to avoid imo.

    Are you saying that we should be critical of a specific local instructor because he certified some folks that have died?
    Because that's exactly how I take your post, if I'm wrong, and I have been divorced so I am totally fine with being wrong, please correct.

    Cave diving is a big boy adult activity, instructors teach a skill and that's it, looking to them to mentor and guide adults after class is ridiculous.
    I know as instructors you feel some deeper connection, maybe feel responsible for some events, but if you didn't teach something totally incorrectly just get over yourself.
    You are just teaching a skill, like driving, you aren't becoming someones parent.
    Patting yourself on the back because you don't have a death shows nothing except your penchant for misguided correlations in life.

    Instructors can filter based on some behavior, maybe you'll catch some goofs, but most are on their best behavior during class and then do as they will after.
    It's just a fact, you aren't changing anyone during cave class nor are you particularly adept at psychological evaluation and behavior correction.
    If the skills were taught correctly, then it's the person and their choices, every single time.
    Personal responsibility is the answer. Not your spreadsheet.
    Exactly right! Forgive the following crass statement but I think it makes the point perfectly,,,

    Statistics say 9 out of 10 people enjoy a gang rape. Obviously there is much more to something and judging an instructor by a fatality is as flawed as the above statement. A fatality should be investigated and analysed individually and on a case to case basis. I am by no means experienced at all but all the old hands frequently say it?s often a chain of event.

    There are many more effective metrics to measure instructors and apply quality assurance through agency involvement. That?s where it should be done. Not on a statistic that is removed from the causality.

    My 1 cent worth,,


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdax View Post
    Instructors can filter based on some behavior, maybe you'll catch some goofs, but most are on their best behavior during class and then do as they will after.
    It's just a fact, you aren't changing anyone during cave class nor are you particularly adept at psychological evaluation and behavior correction.
    If the skills were taught correctly, then it's the person and their choices, every single time.
    Personal responsibility is the answer. Not your spreadsheet.
    One of my apprentice/full cave students showed great maturity in class and even went so far as to tell me the emphasis on team and the leadership he learned in cave class helped him be a better husband and father. Then, he decided to do a solo scooter to the Henkel within a few dives after completing full cave.

    Trace Malinowski
    www.scubacoachtrace.com
    Save 5% off Deep 6 Gear when you use Scuba Coach Trace as an affiliate coupon code http://www.deep6gear.com/?acc=105
    "Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by TraceMalin View Post
    One of my apprentice/full cave students showed great maturity in class and even went so far as to tell me the emphasis on team and the leadership he learned in cave class helped him be a better husband and father. Then, he decided to do a solo scooter to the Henkel within a few dives after completing full cave.
    Did he have enough sense to properly gas plan and I am guessing he wasn't known for busting 1/3rds in your class as well as with other divers?


  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdax View Post
    This concept is silly,

    Cave diving is a big boy adult activity, instructors teach a skill and that's it, looking to them to mentor and guide adults after class is ridiculous.
    I know as instructors you feel some deeper connection, maybe feel responsible for some events, but if you didn't teach something totally incorrectly just get over yourself.
    You are just teaching a skill, like driving, you aren't becoming someones parent.
    So, I'll sacrifice myself here on behalf of the newbies. I'm not exactly certain what constitutes a "big boy, adult activity". For myself, I have definitely needed some guidance, assistance, mentorship in most if not all of the major adult undertakings in my life and I am incredibly appreciative to those who have taken the time to share their experience and wisdom with me. When I was younger it was often in hindsight that I realized what these mentors had done for me (oftentimes I simply learned that they were incredibly patient with me). Today, I actively seek out the guidance of those with greater experience and evidence of greater success than myself in a number of arenas including love, work, life, etc.

    Entering into the overhead environment may not seem like much to many but was a major decision for me. I did not have access to statistical analysis of instructor records and most likely would have questioned the analysis. I spoke with an old friend who is fairly well accomplished in the world of underwater exploration and went with his suggestion on who to seek training from. I suppose that might be the equivalent of a trust me dive taken to the exponential level but that was the decision making process. After making contact with the instructor, I found that he had significant experience in the overhead environment (that was really important to me, someone who has done this themselves and survived multiple thousand times) and he could hear my goals for the training and propose a number of routes to successfully meeting those goals. So far, this seems to be working. No offense meant to my instructor but I would not be able to do this without the mentorship of some of the more experienced members of this community. There simply is not enough time in a weekend long course for me to become as proficient as I would like to be in most of the skills that I have been learning.

    I am extremely grateful to the members of this community who have reached out a hand to me and joined me on dives, worked skills with me, given me advice in the water, etc. which has largely been the result of this forum. This is the stuff by the way, the repeated practice of skills with immediate feedback from more experienced divers (learning experiences) that seems to truly incorporate those skills as part my own personal dive regimen rather than the conclusion of an exercise.

    Ultimately, I am my own responsibility. I get that. I am not my instructor's responsibility once he has signed off on my training. For the moment, my goal is to avoid becoming anyone's liability on a dive team.

    I think I've rambled off into something other than the topic. My apologies.

    As a new face on the scene, here is what I would prefer over a database of instructor/student deaths.

    1. Increase the length of the training: Land skills and In water skills. If it cost more, fine, it would be worth it. Spread it out over three days or two weekends.

    2. Set a minimum number of dives at each level to move on in the training and consider if that number needs to increase. So far, being in the water, in the overhead seems to be the only way for me personally to gain familiarity and comfortability in the environment. This should not keep anyone from advancing quickly and seems to be much more in line with the whole idea of progressing slowly into the environment.

    I realize I have just signed my own warrant for public persecution in sharing my opinion.

    To those of you who have taken the time to help mentor me in this process, I cannot thank you enough.

    Dominick Gheesling

    Hike your own hike.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bamafan View Post
    Did he have enough sense to properly gas plan and I am guessing he wasn't known for busting 1/3rds in your class as well as with other divers?
    True. When his class of 3 students surfaced in Olsen with one diver 100 psi beyond his thirds, said student was team leader. He chose to do the "walk of shame" even though I tried to con them into the idea that they had enough gas to swim to P1.

    Trace Malinowski
    www.scubacoachtrace.com
    Save 5% off Deep 6 Gear when you use Scuba Coach Trace as an affiliate coupon code http://www.deep6gear.com/?acc=105
    "Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux

  7. #87

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    What about something as simple as a "technical Referral", or database for students that have failed and go instructor shopping? Obviously if the student has the cert, the completed they class, but what if they didn't complete the class, and went to a different instructor.. The main issue that I have personally seen (and I have been only cave diving for a little over a year), is students that fail a set of standards and then go instructor shopping because heaven forbid they just simply suck at a frog kick, or like mentioned before have the wrong attitude. Start at the beginning of technical classes, such as ANDP, if the student passes, great.. if not state as to why, so the next instructor isn't under the impression that they are dealing with a fresh student. But then again this relies heavily on both student consent, and instructor participation... I surmise that in all likelihood the system would be defective based on piss poor instructors either hyping students abilities, flat out lying, or just not participating.

    Realistically, its a huge task for someone to create this, let alone get the Technical Certifying agencies all on the same page with common access, but it could be done. I think sharing this information, is more realistic than say a spreadsheet with ratio of certified vs deaths per Instructor. To make the spreadsheet accurate, you would have to specifically target deaths associated with poor training, and unless its observed in a class, there is no way to tie it to the instructor... and if there is poor training during class, that should be reported to the certifying agency quickly.. but a student may not always know the standards.. so down the rabbit hole (proverbial) we go.

    I know that there have been fatalities during training, and IMO the training agency in some cases did the right thing, and in other cases not so much. Just my .02 from a newbie.


  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by TraceMalin View Post
    True. When his class of 3 students surfaced in Olsen with one diver 100 psi beyond his thirds, said student was team leader. He chose to do the "walk of shame" even though I tried to con them into the idea that they had enough gas to swim to P1.
    Well that is way better than what the deceased did from the numerous stories I was told previous to last weekend. It also seems from the Bear's ramblings that there is a weekness with gas planning and scooters. I wonder if they had the same scooter instructor?


  9. #89
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    I failed Algebra I in high school with one teacher and had to take the class over with another and got an "A." The first teacher wasn't good at teaching me. The second was awesome.

    I've had several students come to me with problems that were easily fixable with our instructor-student dynamic. I've had others that I couldn't fix and suggested a different approach with another instructor. I know that instructor shopping often seems to lean in the direction of trying to find an "easier" instructor. But, sometimes the instructor - student dynamic isn't always conducive to learning. My very first cave instructor and I never even got into the water together. He wanted me to use a left side long hose and steel deco bottles. I thumbed class because I had taken GUE-F and GUE Tech 1 before I took cave training and was comfortable with my configuration. I found an NACD instructor who was fine with my set-up. Turned out he was one tough hombre and a great teacher. I've had many tech and cave instructors for various levels and he was one of the best of the bunch.

    Some cave instructors with years of teaching can't perform skills well. I've seen videos where training directors and sponsors are pumping their knees or bicycling the modified flutter or shuffle kicks. It's more difficult for a student to learn to do a skill when the instructor cannot do it well or at least know how to break down the components to correct a problem. Shopping isn't always a bad thing.

    Trace Malinowski
    www.scubacoachtrace.com
    Save 5% off Deep 6 Gear when you use Scuba Coach Trace as an affiliate coupon code http://www.deep6gear.com/?acc=105
    "Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux

  10. #90

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    The latest line of thinking has the following assumptions:

    1. An instructor who fails a lot of students must be really, really good, just as a plumber whose repair jobs regularly leak must be a really, really good plumber. An instructor's job is to teach. If an instructor admits a qualified student into a properly designed class, if the qualified student works diligently, and if the student was properly instructed, then that student should pass the class. If not, at least one of those conditions was not met. If a specific instructor has a lot of students failing his or her classes, my bets would start learning toward the quality of the instruction.

    2. A student who fails a class and then goes to a different instructor is looking for someone with lower standards. In reality, he or she might be looking for a better instructor. He or she might not have had the necessary beginning skills needed for success, took time off to work on them, and then switched for any of a number of reasons. I know someone who went for cave training with very little previous dive experience and could see he wasn't going to make it. He took a year working in a tech diving program to improve his skills. His original instructor had been of the "drill-sergeant-curse-your-every-mistake" mode of instruction, and when the student decided he was ready to return to cave instruction, he chose someone with a less confrontational approach to instruction.

    John Adsit
    Boulder, CO
    Education Articles


 

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