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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    I had a student that took full trimix with me in 1997. He didn't pass the class initially, and he had to come back and take it again before he passed.

    He died in 2011 or 2010 from complications due to DCS after a dive in a deep cave.

    Is this my fault?
    Yes. Every time I get a speeding ticket it is completely the fault of my driving education instructor

    "Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick

  2. #22

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    Banana with a little peanut butter...yum!


  3. #23

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    Personally I think it is an extremely stupid idea. There are too many variables involved. One could be a very bad diver and instructor and as such turns the student off to diving. Now that instuctor won?t have any dead former students as they no longer dive. On the other hand you could have a very active instructor who is solid in the water and a good mentor. This instructor will more than likely attract a more active student base as well. There is no way that a deaths vs years or students metric could work. The only benefit would be for the politically motivated type which has an inferiority complex.
    For the record:
    Years teaching- 27
    Years teaching tech- 20
    Years teaching rebreathers-12
    Years teaching Cave- 10
    Dead former students-1
    It was a former cave student that died on a wreck in the northeast while solo. Not a week goes by that I don?t think about that and what I could have done or said to maybe prevent that.
    I?ll take the Pepsi challenge any day with anyone as to my diving skill or instructional ability. Bring it on and film it while your at it. Talk is cheap.


  4. #24

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    Who gets the black mark on their training record for the death of Sheck Exley? How about David Shaw?

    A year and a half ago I was on a team that lost a diver. He was a highly trained, highly skilled diver doing a dangerous exploration dive that I would not dream of doing. When he died, it was part of a sequence of cave diving deaths that caught my attention because the divers were doing such extreme dives. There were the Finnish divers who died in an extremely deep Norwegian cave. There was the diver who passed when his scooter imploded at a depth around 200 meters.

    These were probably once outstanding beginning cave students taught by outstanding instructors. They went on to go far beyond what 99% of cave divers will ever do. They lived and dived on the very edge of what is possible in this activity. How would those deaths look any different on an instructor's record than the death of an unskilled diver doing something really stupid?

    John Adsit
    Boulder, CO
    Education Articles

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAd View Post
    Who gets the black mark on their training record for the death of Sheck Exley? How about David Shaw?

    A year and a half ago I was on a team that lost a diver. He was a highly trained, highly skilled diver doing a dangerous exploration dive that I would not dream of doing. When he died, it was part of a sequence of cave diving deaths that caught my attention because the divers were doing such extreme dives. There were the Finnish divers who died in an extremely deep Norwegian cave. There was the diver who passed when his scooter imploded at a depth around 200 meters.

    These were probably once outstanding beginning cave students taught by outstanding instructors. They went on to go far beyond what 99% of cave divers will ever do. They lived and dived on the very edge of what is possible in this activity. How would those deaths look any different on an instructor's record than the death of an unskilled diver doing something really stupid?
    Do you think there is an issue with training? What would you propose? You certainly have to have some kind of measurement. I think by agency would probably be a little more useful statistically since the sample size would be bigger but them you get the issue of people with multiple agency certs.


  6. #26

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    On one hand, my full cave instructor was proud that none of his students had died in a cave (do to something other than a medical issue), and he also lamented that while at one time we could say that no trained cave diver had died in a cave, that is no longer the case.

    Now, admittedly his zero death rate was in part due to some luck, but some portion of it was also probably due to his unwillingness to pass anyone who could not meet the standard, or who did not impress him as having the maturity to be cave diving.

    Things do seem to have gotten worse and skill levels seem to be on the decline, due to poor training, lower expectations in the community as a whole, a decrease in cave diver discipline, or a combination of two or more of these elements.

    ----

    In an ideal world, we could have a data base that calculated the rates of fatalities by instructor. This could be used to generate a list of instructors who have fatality rates that are higher than the average by a statistically significant margin (more than one or two standard deviations above the mean).

    In simple terms this would mean that instructors with large numbers of prior students could have more former students who died in a cave (due to non medically related reasons) than a newer or less active instructor with fewer total students trained and the two instructors could still have comparable rates. And it means we'd only be raising the red flag when a particular instructor has significantly more fatalities than can be accounted for by random chance at the 67% or 95% level.

    However, it's just not practical because we do not live in an ideal world.

    Such a data base would require all cave certification agencies to report past and present cave C cards and instructors to the data base - and that's just not going to happen. Ever.

    That data base would then need to be cross matched with accident reports world wide that are detailed enough to list the cause as medical versus an error on the part of the deceased. We can't make that happen here in the US, let alone worldwide.

    Even if both these things occurred, we'd have very few instructors on the list at the 67% confidence level and we'd probably have no instructors on the list at the 95% confidence level. Which means it would be pretty pointless. And, absent a sufficiently high confidence level, the list would just be arbitrary and again pointless.


    But feel free to keep on beating this dead horse....

    Last edited by DA Aquamaster; 11-22-2017 at 02:30 PM.
    NACD Cave DPV Cert # 666: Cave DPV Anti-christ

  7. #27

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    Crass.

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster View Post
    In an ideal world, we could have a data base that calculated the rates of fatalities by instructor. This could be used to generate a list of instructors who have fatality rates that are higher than the average by a statistically significant margin (more than one or two standard deviations above the mean).
    There are not enough fatalities to derive any sort of statistically significant results. A couple years ago there were no deaths whatsoever for the entire year. If I am not mistaken, about half of all cave fatalities involve uncertified people, so none of those would count. Then take out the ones caused by medical events, and you are down to a pretty small number. If anyone has a record of fatalities with enough total to be one or two standard deviations above the mean, that would be news indeed.

    And then, are there others that should be excluded? How about what I mentioned earlier--the highly experienced and highly skilled diver attempting an incredibly challenging dive. Should a diver with 2,000 cave dives count against his cavern instructor's record?

    John Adsit
    Boulder, CO
    Education Articles

  9. #29
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    Transparancy... very controversial.


    Not too long ago somebody PASSED his instructor training course and is a cave instructor now even though a stundent died alone during the course in a place he shouldn't have been in the first place... but surely, why blame the instructor or the trainer or the agency.
    A dude apparently died due to hypoxia on an breather while the instructor was right there... just to name a couple of examples.
    I would never want anyone I know to take a course with these people.

    So someboby remind me, why take training and have training standards to begin with when instructors have no responsibility and there are never any consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerted View Post
    Personally I think it is an extremely stupid idea. There are too many variables involved. One could be a very bad diver and instructor and as such turns the student off to diving. Now that instuctor won?t have any dead former students as they no longer dive. On the other hand you could have a very active instructor who is solid in the water and a good mentor. This instructor will more than likely attract a more active student base as well. There is no way that a deaths vs years or students metric could work. The only benefit would be for the politically motivated type which has an inferiority complex.
    For the record:
    Years teaching- 27
    Years teaching tech- 20
    Years teaching rebreathers-12
    Years teaching Cave- 10
    Dead former students-1
    It was a former cave student that died on a wreck in the northeast while solo. Not a week goes by that I don?t think about that and what I could have done or said to maybe prevent that.
    I?ll take the Pepsi challenge any day with anyone as to my diving skill or instructional ability. Bring it on and film it while your at it. Talk is cheap.
    You have a good track record, so why would you say it's a stupid idea? People like you would benefit from more tranparancy. The legit instructors should be the once wanting to weed out the bozos, more than anyone.
    Counting the accidents of stundents might not be the best way but more tranparency would help out the good instructors and the stundents.


  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by bamafan View Post
    Do you think there is an issue with training? What would you propose? You certainly have to have some kind of measurement. I think by agency would probably be a little more useful statistically since the sample size would be bigger but them you get the issue of people with multiple agency certs.
    Do I think there is an issue with training? I have no idea, and I wonder how others are gaining their insights. I remember my training, with one instructor, and I can to a very small degree compare that with a friend who was trained by someone else at the same time. I only have his descriptions for that comparison--I didn't actually see it.I had some more advanced training (overhead sidemount and overhead DPV) later on, but those experiences are the only training I have ever seen. I didn't see anyone else's training when I was first certified, and I have not seen anyone else's training since. How can I make a valid comparison?

    Even if I were to watch another class now, can I really compare it to mine? Do I really know what I looked like when I was certified? Am I not more likely to compare the students to myself now than to what I was then?

    If you go to a place like ScubaBoard, you will see almost every day someone talking about how bad ALL current instruction is compared to ALL instruction when he or she as certified. How can they know that? I was OW certified 20 years ago, and as an instructor I have seen hundreds of classes over the last 13 years, both my own and others sharing a training site with me. Every one of them was FAR better than the pathetic instruction I got two decades ago. Should I conclude from my that all instruction throughout the world now is better than all instruction decades ago? How can anyone with such limited experience draw any sort of a valid conclusion?

    For reasons that I have mentioned in other posts, I simply don't see how you can draw conclusions from fatalities. There are too many reasons for them that have absolutely nothing to do with initial training.

    John Adsit
    Boulder, CO
    Education Articles


 

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